Questions about the southern terminus

[toph]

Traveling NOBO, at what point does the road walk end and an actual trail begin?  It appears to be at least 35 miles of road walking based on the maps linked in the previous thread...certain ly makes trailbuilding easier but why on earth would anyone want to hike that?

[ednotmilkman]

Official south trailhead is still Bulls Gap for the "woods" walk, however if you get the official forest service map of Talladega N.F., you can find the "new end" and walk 9.4 more miles southwest from Bulls Gap ending on FS 675 just west of the Talladega/Clay county line and on the north side of the mountain.  I only walked there from Bulls Gap and turned around, so I did not actually get there by vehicle, but I know you can because a hunter had his truck parked there the day I got to the road.

The map directs you 4.1 miles east on CR  511/Goodwater Hwy from Hwy 21 in Sylacauga, or 1.6 miles west of the Talladega/Clay county line if you come in from Goodwater down from Bull Gap.  Then turn north on CR 232/Tramel Rd. It turns into the gravel FS 603. It looks like next you turn right onto unnamed FS ?, then turn left past an FS gate onto 603A, then turn right onto 603B, then left onto 675. The Pinhoti blazes should be found at the end of this road where there is a dirt roadblock.  I do have the gps coords for the trail end and the FS gate, as well as a gps track of the complete 9.4 miles of trail if you are interested.

[toph]

Thanks ed but I think we are just going to start at Bull's Gap and head north from there this trip.  Any idea what the water availablity and campsites are along that section up to Porter's Gap?

[Cuffs]

The OFFICIAL southern terminus IS Flagg Mtn.  There is approx. 4 miles of woods trail from Flagg Mtn headed north, then road walk to Bull Gap.  Rebecca Mtn is NOT open yet to hikers.  There is still a portion of privately held land that the purchase has yet to finalized.  If you do choose to cross Rebecca, understand you could be considered trespassing. 

Water from Bull Gap, headed north. There is no water for the first 12 miles. The picnic pavillion at Horn Mtn is at MM9ish, and the first reliable water is at Scott Lake/cascades.

[ednotmilkman]

My understanding is that one reason we don't have woods trail built down to Flagg Mountain and the Coosa River through the Coosa WMA, is we need more volunteers to actually donate time to do the work.  I'm not sure exactly how many groups are represented by my term "we", but I worked with Alabama Hiking Trail Society last month for my first attempt at "trail building". I enjoyed the "unknown" aspect of it when I had time to go back alone later to find old blazes, hunter or animal trails, pre-forest service roads,  new water sources, and conect them by simply flagging and raking,  to the new parts of trail that have been cut.

Cuffs, I didn't see any tresspassing signs anywhere along the whole Rebecca Mountain section. Rick Guhse thought it would be ok to pass along the info ??  I flagged and raked a 340 ft path down to one water source in a cane break from a saddle on the ridge that is only 2 miles sw of Bulls Gap. I'm sure it would be reliable until at least April !

[Cuffs]

It does not have to be posted to be considered trespassing.  The dozers that worked up there a few months ago stopped where they did due to the private land parcel in the middle of the mountain. 

[MoBill122]

In Alabama, if you are on Private property without " written permission " on your person, you will be arrested for trespassing.   There is no requirement that the land be posted with signs.
The landowner doesn't have to catch you...  just a Forest Ranger or Game Warden..  and if you don't have " Written Permission " you go to jail.  Simple as that now.

 A trail like the Pinhoti has an easement of like 100ft? over private property.  Venture off bushwacking away from the trail easement, and the above will apply.

 Thats a generalization of the facts,but I'm sure more knowledgeable folks can add to it. 

[ednotmilkman]

guess I should not have put up so much tape then.  There are several places where the NF boundary is marked. It's kinda hard to figure out which side of it you are on .  If I knew how to get township and section lines on my gps map, it would make the property lines easier to figure out also.

Looking at the AL Dept of Conservation & Natural Resources map of Hollins Wildlife Management area though, there is NO property on top of the entire Rebecca Mountain ridge that is marked "Private". So I'd assume there may be some of it not public land, but if it is still managed by the WMA, how could you ever trespass through it ??

I think I'll try calling the office of the WMA.

[toph]

Do any of you know if there is a suitable camping spot at Horn Mountain...the CCC shelter perhaps?

[Mountain Dog]

The term "suitable" can get you into trouble.  Do not plan any water at camp sites till your reach Scotts.  But, I've camped twice at the old fire tower site. The area is flat and nice If the weeds are not too high for a tent.  Wormy's Pulpit is a possibility and there is a large flat parcel of land on the north east section where the trail loops around the radio tower.  I'm not aware of any "improved" camp sites.  By improved I mean cleared, level and with any type of fire ring.

[toph]

Thanks again MD.  I've already resigned to the fact that we'll either have to pack enough water or cache some off of FS 600 somewhere.  I actually drove 600 a couple of miles from Bull's Gap late yesterday afternoon on a scouting trip and other than being rough from the rocks, it didn't seem too bad. 

Yeah, your definition of an improved site is really what I was looking for.  I would guess any improved ones are already noted on the PTA pocket notes.  I know generally speaking improving a site is frowned upon but considering that's a pretty good stretch of trail without an improved site and the trail isn't frequently used, what do you think the PTA's stance on "improving" one of the spots you mentioned would be?

[Cuffs]

ED:  WMA's can be privately held property.  Its just an agreement that land owners have agreed to let their land be used for wildlife mgmt...  Because a parcel is labeled WMA does not mean it is govt. owned land.  (I learned that the long/hard way...)

Toph:  There is good camping at the Horn Mtn Fire Tower and picnic shelter, just no water.  Side note:  if the wind is blowing, the tower rattles all night...

LNT principles dictate that you find durable surfaces to camp on (ie: already improved sites, and not create new ones).  There are enough areas at key intervals that should keep most hikers happy.

[Mountain Dog]

Toph,
Do not let the first couple of miles on 600 north of Bull fool you.  Unless someone has worked on the road within the last year or so, the road closes in with brush and WILL do considerable damage to you paint before you reach the top.   There are several places along the trail where people obviously drive up the road and walk to the overlooks.  The road is pretty good up to those points.  The road opens back up about 3/4 mile south of the fire tower.

[toph]

The scratches don't bother me too bad...it's the prospect of getting stuck or needing to turn around and not being able to that concerns me the most.  So you're saying that it shouldn't be a problem to drive to within 3/4 of a mile of the fire tower to cache water without much trouble?  Is that coming from the north or south?

[Mountain Dog]

That is not what I meant to say.  My experience has been that from where you stopped, the road deterorates in width and smoothness till it becomes almost impassable.  It opens out and gets much better about 3/4 (I might be way off here.  It might be much less than 3/4) of a mile from the road leading to the fire tower.  I made it with a 2 wheel Ford F-150 with oversized tires.  There were a couple of times I had my partner watch to make sure I kept the truck centered over ruts that would have stopped me.  I would have turned around before tackling a few places but, once committed, I could not turn around till I was almost at the top.  From there on, the road was wide and less rutted.  I've seen motor cycle clubs using the road.  Ergo, expect a lot of washing.  I personally would not use the south side of the mountain road.  I'd use the north side and stash water wherever you plan to stop for the night.  I'd stop on the top or Scotts lake.  I do not think you will find a suitable place to camp once you drop off the mountain just north of the radio tower loop until you get to the lake. 

There are two sections of the road running from Bull to Duggar Mountain Road that I will never try again.  One is what we just discussed.  The other is the section from the Talladega Creek Bridge to the top, headed north.  The pastor at the church you pass on the road leading to the bridge advised me to NOT take a 2 wheel truck up the road.  I did not listen because the road looked fine as it started up the mountain past the creek.  I figured he must have thought I had a baby truck or a ford car with low clearance, surely he did not mean a full size high clearance F-150 was not advisable.  He understood perfectly well, I was the one not listening.  That was about 3 years ago so the road might be better now.  I'll let others test it.
Cuffs was correct about the tower making a lot of noise when the wind blows, and it probably will blow.  Still, I'd stay near it for the convenience of the pillion (no table the last time I was there) and the level ground.  There are some low stone walls that you can use to block the wind from small tents and you can drop off the mountain towards the east if you use a Hammock to dodge the wind.  I've never stayed at Wormy's P but I think you could find level solid ground there that would meet LNT requirements.  Also, I think there is an old turn around area where the trail drops off the mountain just west of the 600 after you finish walking around the radio tower.  This latter area would give you better protection than the other two if the weather is bad.  Just remember LNT guidance about damaging the foliage and land.  By the way, the pavilion is the only place I have ever seen a scorpion so check your boots good in the morning.

FYI, when headed east from Porters Gap, the road to the fire tower is the last dirt road on your right before you come to a paved road or it might just be a large driveway to your right and below hwy 77.  The dirt road is not label.  Maybe someone here can do a better job telling you exactly how to identify the road since it is not labeled.

[toph]

I think you meant when headed west from Porter's Gap rather than east?  Regardless, lots of what appears to be good info and I do appreciate you taking the time...looking forward to it.

[Mountain Dog]

I have not used the new TH at Porters Gap.  The road widening was going on the last time I passed through.  However, I thought  I saw where the new TH was being preparred.  It looked like the new TH would be really close to the old one.  Unless the TH was moved a really long way east, the road to the old fire tower is east of the TH.  The roads west of the TH do not take you to the fire tower. 

[Cuffs]

The trailhead at Porter Gap is in the same location as it was previously, just set a tad further back off the road.  It is on the north side of Hwy 77, right on the trail.

[Magic City Matt]

If one was to leave out from Flag Mt. is there a place you can park up there? When I was up there a couple of weeks ago the tower area kind of seems liked they did not want people around.

[Cuffs]

If one was to leave out from Flag Mt. is there a place you can park up there? When I was up there a couple of weeks ago the tower area kind of seems liked they did not want people around.

You can certainly leave your car anywhere along the dirt road you like.  Mind you, your car may not be in the same condition as you left it upon your return...  As for parking at the fire tower... no.  The FS is in a lease agreement with a small group of local people who have usage rights to the tower and land surrounding it (hence the gate.)