Hemlocks and Big Leaf Magnolias

[JustADude]

These two trees are common in Bankhead and nonexistant where I live just 40 miles away. According to my tree book Bankhead is just about the northern and eastern limit to the range for the BL Magnolia and is also near the southwestern limit for the Eastern Hemlock. So the Bankhead area is the only place in the world where you can find the two living side-by-side.

Has anyone ever tried to get a sprout to live outside that area? What do you think would happen if I took some of those big seed pods from a BL Magnolia and planted them at home? How about the  Hemlock. Since I am  to the north (Limestone County) I suspect the Hemlock would be more likely to grow here. If I was in Bankhead but outside Sipsey would I be breaking the law to dig up a small one to transplant it?

Comments?

[Pathfinder]

Try getting your samples from a private land owner. 

[Lostsheep]

With it being a national forest, you could get in trouble for digging. This is the case in several places. I'd strongly recommend against it.

Plus, not to be a hardnose, but it's one of the principles in LNT. Leave what you find.

And since you don't have them in your backyard, wouldn't it help you get out more to go see them?

[montysano]

Personally, I wouldn't take anything from the Wilderness Area.  Outside the wilderness?  I say "go for it", especially if you're just picking up seed pods.  We have Oak Leaf Hydrangeas in our yard that are grown from gathered seeds in Bankhead.

I believe in LNT, but to say that picking up a seed pod violates LNT seems extreme to me.  YMMV.

[Lostsheep]

...I believe in LNT, but to say that picking up a seed pod violates LNT seems extreme to me.  YMMV.

A seedpod, okay. Digging, not so okay.

[Firedog]

The Eastern Hemlock is by far the most beautiful conifer there is. It is my all time favorite. I had noticed that here in Calhoun county there were a few hemlocks around but were very sparse. I ordered 10 seedlings, mail order. They came dry rooted with some gel stuff on them. I followed the directions for planting to no avail, they all died.
I have harvested, on several occasions, Eastern Hemlocks up near Cleveland, TN. I have a friend that has some forested land with plenty of them on his place. The first attempts on transplanting, I coated the roots with blood meal and some root tone. They all died. The second attempt I dug the root ball up intact and transplanted the roots with their natural soil. One lived and is about 6 months old and is showing new growth over the summer. I've kept my fingers crossed that this one will live. Once, while at the Builtmore House in Ashville, I spoke with one of the biologist that manages the grounds there and he told me that they were tough to transplant. The soil has to be just so.
 I picked up some seed cones once and tried to seed some and none came up. I usually have a green thumb with plants but these are not so easy. Good luck with your attempts. My suggestion is to find the trees on private land and dig them up keeping the root ball undisturbed as much as possible and water daily for the 1st couple of months until the shock is over of the move. And last but not least, The Hemlock Woolly Adelgid. So for the hemlocks we have left this little booger comes along. http://www.saveourhemlocks.org/

Did I say I liked the Hemlocks? A little history as I know it. May not be exact but here goes. In North AL until around 1900 the Hemlock was plentiful. Growing almost in all rocky, limestone areas. Our ancestors harvested the trees because they grew straight, very tall, and had small limbs making small knots. Were very strong because they grew slow had a tighter core strength. Great for bridge pilings and telephone poles. As they were harvested none were replanted because of the regrowth rate. The only places now that you can still see old Hemlocks are in places like the Sipsey basin and others because they were too much trouble to harvest.
If you can find a copy of the Encyclopedia of Alabama grab it up. It is a wealth of knowledge about our state during that time in history. I love to read the info it has.
Also contained in this book is photo's of Cheaha Mtn. In 1900 it was bald on top because of tree harvesting. Not until the CC Corps came it was replanted and wooden pegs were driven into the ground to help retain what soil was left. We can thank the CCC's for what is there now. The trees that are there now if you notice are very small/short twisted by ice & weather. Their size can be attributed to erosion of the top soil.

Enough of my rant. Good luck with your trees. Carl W., the Hemlock nerd.

[montysano]

My wife talks about going to Bankhead and going into the "Hemlock Zone".  Down along the creeks, in a hemlock grove, the air is different.

We went to Riddle Creek once, with this ambitious agenda to hike up Quillan Creek to the Arnold Motorway.  We spent the whole day in a hemlock grove along Quillan, lounging around, napping, completely blissed out.

There's just no place like Sipsey.

[AlabamaDan]

...to say that picking up a seed pod violates LNT seems extreme...

The thing is, what if everyone who came through the forest picked up a seedpod....  It's a big thing to think of and I was having a hard time getting my scouts to buy into it until we went to a state park and the grounds, trails, etc was so picked over that a scout said, "Is this why we should leave everything we find?"

[Joshua Szulecki]

"My suggestion is to find the trees on private land and dig them up keeping the root ball undisturbed as much as possible and water daily for the 1st couple of months until the shock is over of the move."

You can buy seedlings, so why dig up established plants?

From the perspective of an orchid grower... Personally, whenever seeds or plants are for sale from lab/nursery propagated plants, I wouldn't even consider any other source. I'll begrudge that in some instances there is a need to collect seeds (such as when bringing a new species into cultivation, or breeding local populations for preservation), but then it must be done only with a permit or permission (or both if required) AND then ONLY SEEDS. Also note, I've seen rules at many places which allow for edible seed/berry collection, but these aren't for eating. This is a perpetual quandry among native N. American orchid growers, and the answers are varied. The best solution is to just buy plants which are lab/nursury propagated, and avoid the quandry altogether.

Transplants of most species die very quickly. Plants in nature do not come balled in burlap for easy digging. Even balled-in-burlap X-mas trees have a pretty decent fatality rate.

Point being, the plants are for sale via mail order from multiple sources, so there is no need for the average grower to take plants OR seeds from the wild. Just pay the $ and deal with it. That's what we orchid growers do. For example, I have paid upwards of $50 for a single lab propagated plant. That is NOTHING in the tropical orchid world. Hemlocks are CHEAP in comparison.

[Joshua Szulecki]

Here are some sources for hemlock seedlings a quick Google search turned up:

http://www.porkyfarm.com/hemlock.asp
http://www.mitrees.com/tr...roducts.asp?idCategory=36
http://www.coldstreamfarm...t/c-21-hemlock-trees.aspx
http://www.nurserymen.com...an-hemlock-seedlings.html
http://www.daytonnursery....bs/tsuga%20canadensis.htm

Besides, you may have difficulty finding seeds anyway. Researching studying the plants struggled to collect them recently...
http://www.camcore.org/projects/hemlock.php

[montysano]

The thing is, what if everyone who came through the forest picked up a seedpod....  It's a big thing to think of and I was having a hard time getting my scouts to buy into it until we went to a state park and the grounds, trails, etc was so picked over that a scout said, "Is this why we should leave everything we find?"

I tend to oppose the solving of a problem that doesn't exist, and I think this is an example.  I see no potential for there to be hoards of people roaming Bankhead and stripping it of fallen seeds.  90+% of people I talk to have never been there and will never go there.  Certainly no one should do it for commercial purposes.  But if I'd like to have a plant in my yard that came from Bankhead, I think that's a reasonable use or OUR national forests.

[montysano]

This is an interesting discussion; let's take it a step further.

While bushwhacking on North Caney, I spotted a projectile point lying in plain view.  Should that stay right where it was?

On another Caney bushwhack, I found a turtle shell.  Should that stay where it was?

Both items live on my desk at work, and are among my most treasured possessions.  Was this wrong?

[jaybird]

90% of people who try to grow hemlocks fail.  Know why?  They don't have the cool, moist -- yet well-drained conditions that the hemlocks love.  That's why they're limited to the canyons.  Glaciers pushed them down from the north many eons ago, and when the glaciers receded -- guess what environment most reminded the hemlocks of their native home?  Right!  The cool, moist, deep canyons of northwest AL.

One note about the big leaf magnolia.  It is great during the time it blooms, but is relatively short-lived as trees go.  It is also quite hard to manage the leaves in fall, as they resemble trash and will blow *EVERYWHERE* in your yard and your neighbor's.

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/trees/TSUCANA.pdf

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/trees/MAGMACA.pdf

[jaybird]

This is an interesting discussion; let's take it a step further.

While bushwhacking on North Caney, I spotted a projectile point lying in plain view.  Should that stay right where it was?

On another Caney bushwhack, I found a turtle shell.  Should that stay where it was?

Both items live on my desk at work, and are among my most treasured possessions.  Was this wrong?

Montysano,

I totally understand where you're coming from.  I have no idea where you are in your backpacking adventures (newbie, seasoned, etc.).  But, I've found that over the years, I've turned to more of a protector of places and the feelings they gave me when I first went there.  Sure, I took things when I first started out.  But now I go for the upspoiled rawness of it all.  But, that's just me.

The http://www.lnt.org site made me think of something I hadn't thought of -- "natural objects of beauty or interest such as antlers, petrified wood, or colored rocks add to the mood of the backcountry and should be left so others can experience a sense of discovery."  I'm already sold on this nature thing, so in my mind, I'm meant to leave them there for someone else to stumble upon and have that special moment.  If that person takes it, then okay -- but hopefully on down the line, the cycle will continue.

[Lostsheep]

This is an interesting discussion; let's take it a step further.

While bushwhacking on North Caney, I spotted a projectile point lying in plain view.  Should that stay right where it was?

On another Caney bushwhack, I found a turtle shell.  Should that stay where it was?

Both items live on my desk at work, and are among my most treasured possessions.  Was this wrong?

The short answer: YES, it was.

Unfortunately, this is the same exercise and example that we have used in several of the Leave No Trace courses taught. We have generally hidden artifacts and fascinating features. When telling the boys to find them, they never can find the turtle shell, fossil rock, or antlers...b/c someone beat them to it.

Sorta goes back to "take photos, but leave only footprints"

If you're really interested, I strongly urge you to consider signing up and going to the LNT Trainers course that's held in Feb of every year. It's quite an eye opener!

[McDowra]

I bought my Hemlocks from Lowes, the best one survived about 6 months. After really researching it I figured out there is a very good reason why they grow where they do.
 

[Pathfinder]

These two trees are common in Bankhead and nonexistant where I live just 40 miles away. According to my tree book Bankhead is just about the northern and eastern limit to the range for the BL Magnolia and is also near the southwestern limit for the Eastern Hemlock. So the Bankhead area is the only place in the world where you can find the two living side-by-side.

Has anyone ever tried to get a sprout to live outside that area? What do you think would happen if I took some of those big seed pods from a BL Magnolia and planted them at home? How about the  Hemlock. Since I am  to the north (Limestone County) I suspect the Hemlock would be more likely to grow here. If I was in Bankhead but outside Sipsey would I be breaking the law to dig up a small one to transplant it?

Comments?

When you speak of the Big Leaf Magnolia are you referring to what we Alabamians commonly call the Cowcumber Tree or Cucumber Tree?

[montysano]

Montysano,

I totally understand where you're coming from.  I have no idea where you are in your backpacking adventures (newbie, seasoned, etc.). 

30+ years.  I found the turtle shell on one of my first trips to Bankhead back in the early '80s.

I'm very careful to not leave a visible mark on the landscape.  But to say that you can't pick up a pebble and put it in your pocket?  I think that's where I get off the bus.

[jaybird]

When you speak of the Big Leaf Magnolia are you referring to what we Alabamians commonly call the Cowcumber Tree or Cucumber Tree?

Different species.

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/trees/MAGACUA.pdf

[WolfVanZandt]

There a quite a few big leaf magnolias at Callaway Gardens and they seem to do well.