Spin Off - Leave No Trace too far?

[AlabamaDan]

In the Sipsey/Bankhead forum there was a discussion about someone collecting a seed pod or sapling from a Hemlock or Big Leaf Magnolia and it started a LNT discussion.  Someone said that it was an interesteding discussion and I agree.  Also, being a newbie to LNT ethics I'm interested in learning more - especially other's point of view.  I'd like to continue it, but didn't want to hijack a thread.  So, here are the quotes from that thread:

Plus, not to be a hardnose, but it's one of the principles in LNT. Leave what you find.

I believe in LNT, but to say that picking up a seed pod violates LNT seems extreme to me.  YMMV.

A seedpod, okay. Digging, not so okay.

The thing is, what if everyone who came through the forest picked up a seedpod....  It's a big thing to think of and I was having a hard time getting my scouts to buy into it until we went to a state park and the grounds, trails, etc was so picked over that a scout said, "Is this why we should leave everything we find?"

I tend to oppose the solving of a problem that doesn't exist, and I think this is an example.  I see no potential for there to be hoards of people roaming Bankhead and stripping it of fallen seeds.  90+% of people I talk to have never been there and will never go there.  Certainly no one should do it for commercial purposes.  But if I'd like to have a plant in my yard that came from Bankhead, I think that's a reasonable use or OUR national forests.

This is an interesting discussion; let's take it a step further.

While bushwhacking on North Caney, I spotted a projectile point lying in plain view.  Should that stay right where it was?

On another Caney bushwhack, I found a turtle shell.  Should that stay where it was?

Both items live on my desk at work, and are among my most treasured possessions.  Was this wrong?

Montysano,

I totally understand where you're coming from.  I have no idea where you are in your backpacking adventures (newbie, seasoned, etc.).  But, I've found that over the years, I've turned to more of a protector of places and the feelings they gave me when I first went there.  Sure, I took things when I first started out.  But now I go for the upspoiled rawness of it all.  But, that's just me.

The http://www.lnt.org site made me think of something I hadn't thought of -- "natural objects of beauty or interest such as antlers, petrified wood, or colored rocks add to the mood of the backcountry and should be left so others can experience a sense of discovery."  I'm already sold on this nature thing, so in my mind, I'm meant to leave them there for someone else to stumble upon and have that special moment.  If that person takes it, then okay -- but hopefully on down the line, the cycle will continue.

30+ years.  I found the turtle shell on one of my first trips to Bankhead back in the early '80s.

I'm very careful to not leave a visible mark on the landscape.  But to say that you can't pick up a pebble and put it in your pocket?  I think that's where I get off the bus.

The turtle shell is debatable, depending on the circumstances and source. Would I take it? No.

The projectile point... Taking cultural/historical artifacts from public lands is a SERIOUS no-go in my book. 

"But if I'd like to have a plant in my yard that came from Bankhead, I think that's a reasonable use or OUR national forests."

So if you would like to have an endangered plant species in your yard, that would be a reasonable use? What about 100 straight pine logs for a log cabin? What about an endangered animal in your terrarium?  See the slippery slope? It is precisely this attitude which has DECIMATED populations of Cypripedium orchids in the Smokies and other areas.

Maybe you'd like to take a trip back upthread, to where I specified: no digging, no commercial use.  Merely picking up a seed pod.  And you compare that to "100 straight pine logs" and an "endangered animal in your terrarium"? 

Gimme a break.

I didn't interpret what you wrote as saying that, so I stand corrected.

My take on seeds is less strict. Collecting seeds generally results in a net positive for the species (since so few germinate in the wild compared to in cultivation) and so I am generally not opposed to it if you have permission or a permit, and if buying seeds or plants is impossible or is for some other reason not practical, such as for breeding a specific population. In this instance, it really isn't necessary unless you REALLY wanted the Alabama population, which IS geographically isolated from the rest of the population. 

All of this is for educational purposes and let's not attack each other or take offense.

First, I'm not sure where I fall in this yet.  I'm reading the stuff and cavorting with tree huggers, but I'd like to have a collection of outdoor stuff as much as the next person.  How much LNT is too much?

Someone mentioned not wanting to solve a problem that doesn't exist.  As I think about this I begin to think that fully practicing LNT ethics and understanding the cycle of nature prevents the problem from occurring so that it doesn't need to be solved later.  Someone mentioned something about antlers.   When I first started hunting years ago I would search and search for antlers, collect them and take them home.  Then I got to wondering what happens to all those antlers that I didn't bring home and why the forest isn't just overflowing with antlers.  That's when I began to understand that the other animals eat them for nutrients.  It's all part of the food cycle.  What do I do with them, throw them in a box in my basement and honestly not really look at them much.  I quit shed hunting and let the animals have them.

I don't have anything against shed hunters, but I quit because I felt the animals would get more enjoyment out of them as food than I do sitting in a box.  If it's something that really touches you and gives you a great enjoyment and it wouldn't harm the environment, like the turtle shell on your desk, I say keep it.  I think one person collecting one seed pod to try and cultivate a tree is also ok, I mean you're planting a tree right?  What's wrong with that.  But think about it first and understand what could happen.

[mich4076]

One thing that I would like to add but I'm sure everyone knows already is to make sure the plant/seeds you take are a native species in the general area you will be planting it in. The people that brought over kudzu thought it would help but now it is taking over large areas and killing native plants.

[montysano]

I'll admit that I was conflicted about the projectile point.  It was lying in the creek bed at North Caney.  My rationale was that if it stayed where it was, it would eventually get ground up and destroyed (it was already damaged).

Should I have:

- left it where it lay?
- collected it and turned it in to the Forest Service?

[Lostsheep]

My opinion on the projectile point.
You didn't know what it was - it could've been an old worn arrowhead/tool/or just a rock. You can't say for certain that it was a historical artifact. But, you could have easily marked the location on a map, and contacted the ranger office. They would be able to tell you if it lies in a historical area or not. They could have told you their stance on it and probably given you the definitive answer on whether it was historical.

If it were historical, you could've taken pictures and left it at that. The LNT teaches if it's over 50yrs, it's considered historical and should be left alone. If it's simply trash, then it's trash and needs to be removed.

From LNT: "Natural objects of beauty or interest such as antlers, petrified wood, or colored rocks add to the mood of the backcountry and should be left so others can experience a sense of discovery. In National Parks and some other areas it is illegal to remove natural objects.

The same ethic is applicable to cultural artifacts found on public land. Cultural artifacts are protected by the Archaeological Resources Protection Act. It is illegal to remove or disturb archeological sites, historic sites, or artifacts such as pot shards, arrowheads, structures, and even antique bottles found on public lands."

This also goes back to "shed hunting" too.

As for the seed pods
I would not try to transplant a pod from one region or location to another. Sure they're beautiful, but I wouldn't do it. Transplanting can cause more problems than originally thought, and taken to an extreme, could hurt the area that the plant was transplanted from.

From LNT: "Avoid introducing or transporting non-native species....Picki ng a few flowers does not seem like it would have any great impact and, if only a few flowers were picked, it wouldn't. But, if every visitor thought "I'll just take a few", a much more significant impact might result."

I've mentioned it before, but if you're serious and would like to learn a whole lot about LNT, you should check out the LNT Trainers course put on every year. This years is Feb 13-14 @ Camp Tukabatchee in Prattville, Al.

[JustADude]

I support LNT in general, but I think one can take it too far.

I saw some seed pods on the ground in Bankhead this past Saturday. I am pretty sure that if every person that came by there picked up one (which is unlikely), there would still be plenty. I am doubtful that more than 2 or 3 people a year walk through the woods where I was. I was not on a trail, so I don't buy the argument that if every person that came by picked up a seed pod there wouldn't be any left. The fact is I don't think every person walking through the woods there is going to pick up a seed pod - so there are stil plenty there.

[mich4076]

Flowers last forever in a picture, but on a few days in a vase... is there any documentation anywhere on how to find what part of the LNT scale you mentioned Bear?

[AlabamaDan]

Personally when I first heard about it in Scouting this ole country boy just blew it off.  However since then I have come a long way from 0.  I am still not real near 10 and will never be on some of the LNT stuff.

I'm with you Bear Leader.  I grew up and if we found something in the woods it was OURS.  We'd go camping, did holes in the ground, build huge fires, drive nails in trees to hang our lantern, cut down a tree for wood...  As I look back at it I cringe, but no body ever made me aware of LNT.  I'm probably low on the buying into LNT scale, but I see it's benefit.

BTW, I'm a Bear Den Leader too if that's what your name is.  I figure with OLS training it is.

I agree that LNT can go too far.  My daughter picked up a piece of bamboo at an environmental camp a few weeks ago.  I used my knife and put a hole through it so she could run a string and some beads through it.  She was very proud of it and a counsler made her feel bad for having picked it up.  She cried, felt guilty and didn't want it anymore after she got home.  I was a little upset about this because she loved it so much.  I think that counsler took it a little far.

[Jackalope]

. . . They all said that LNT is a buy in process.  Very few people are at 10.  They all three admitted they weren't at 10 . . . They are concerned with people picking a few flowers because that means a lot of people could pick a few flowers and then you have a lot of flowers picked . . .

I am glad you mentioned the "buy in" process Bear!

I have to say though there are other violations of LNT principles that as I see it have a MUCH greater impact on our forests and are of MUCH greater concern to me than picking flowers or picking up seed pods, turtle shells or arrowheads. Namely, the trash that people leave behind.

There isn't a trip to the woods I make that I don't come home with something someone else has left behind.

When I see the soda bottle and snack wrappers on the ground not far from the trail head I put on my show of self righteous indignation and go on about people not respecting others and such while I pick up their mess but really, I am not so deeply offended. I can easily write it off to the contributions of people who are not really trail/outdoor enthusiasts.

Far worse in my view is the trash I find at EVERY camp site I camp at EVERY time I camp in the woods. These campsites are not easy to get to and the trash I am talking about isn't left by someone out for a 20 minute nature walk.

This weekend for example, I camped at a site on the south side of the Sipsey river just down stream of the rapids. The items left by the campers before me that I packed out were an Empty MSR fuel canister, an empty Snow Peak fuel canister, five discarded AA batteries, a couple of semi burned tin cans and seven or eight semi burned pieces of foil wrapper. These items were left behind by someone that has at least some investment in gear and spent a good deal of effort to get to the place they left them.

In my experience, this is the rule, not the exception. In the past year, I have packed out two abandoned tarps a punctured and abandoned Thermarest pad, an old abandoned sleeping bag, several dead batteries, a few bottles, a few items of discarded clothing and a lot of food packaging trash. I am sure I am not alone in this. I have met up with others on the trail that were packing out someone else's trash.

I know next to nothing about LNT. I've never been through any training courses or read any material on the subject. Most of what I know can be summed up by the "Take only pictures, leave only footprints" slogan. I did go to kindergarten though and though it was over 45 years ago, I remember being taught to pick up after myself.

In my view, it seems that people not understanding the finer points of the "Take only pictures" side of the slogan does not nearly pose the problem in our part of the world as folks not being schooled in the "leave only footprints" side.

Just my opinion though.

[Lostsheep]

During our OLS training two weekends ago we listened to the seven step LNT presentation put on by two Master Educators and a Trainer.  ....They all said that LNT is a buy in process.  Very few people are at 10.  They all three admitted they weren't at 10.  Lostsheep sounds like he is close to 10 but others aren't.  However over the years with continual LNT awareness and being in the outdoors it is very possible that everyone else can move a few points closer to 10 and I believe that is the ultimate goal of LNT. 
Personally when I first heard about it in Scouting this ole country boy just blew it off.  However since then I have come a long way from 0.  I am still not real near 10 and will never be on some of the LNT stuff.  But with the progression that I have made, I am sure flowers were saved in the process.   

This is pretty typical. In some of the Training course we've put on, we've made list of things people do in the backcountry. Rated from no effect to dangerous effect on the wilderness. Some were points of LNT, some weren't. Think of it as a guage. People show up, and the first thing that happens is a quiz. It's fine. Then we quickly go over the whole thing. After a weekend of teaching, hands on, and learning, then the participants go over it again. Amazing at what some never even thought would matter. That "guage" is great to compare a before/after with.

By the way Lostsheep, I am looking real seriously at taking that Trainer course in February.  It appears to be less expensive than others have been.

You'll enjoy it. Kz4uzi and I have been involved in it for at least the last 3 years and it's been amazing. There are somethings I still don't buy, and some things I promote whole-heartedly.

[Lostsheep]

I'm with you Bear Leader.  I grew up and if we found something in the woods it was OURS.  We'd go camping, did holes in the ground, build huge fires, drive nails in trees to hang our lantern, cut down a tree for wood...  As I look back at it I cringe, but no body ever made me aware of LNT.  I'm probably low on the buying into LNT scale, but I see it's benefit.
...
I agree that LNT can go too far.  My daughter picked up a piece of bamboo at an environmental camp a few weeks ago.  I used my knife and put a hole through it so she could run a string and some beads through it.  She was very proud of it and a counsler made her feel bad for having picked it up.  She cried, felt guilty and didn't want it anymore after she got home.  I was a little upset about this because she loved it so much.  I think that counsler took it a little far.

I think almost everyone you know that has had some type of background camping has grown up like that ALDan! I sure did. LNT isn't something you accept over night, and it's definatly not something that EVERYONE accepts, but it's something that hopefully you'll take a little from. Even a little will and can be helpful.

Regarding your daughter, yes, that was probably a bit excessive.

[montysano]

I agree that LNT can go too far.  My daughter picked up a piece of bamboo at an environmental camp a few weeks ago.  I used my knife and put a hole through it so she could run a string and some beads through it.  She was very proud of it and a counsler made her feel bad for having picked it up.  She cried, felt guilty and didn't want it anymore after she got home.  I was a little upset about this because she loved it so much.  I think that counsler took it a little far.

I'm curious about this environmental camp: was the message of LNT applied to public lands and parks, or to any forest?  If it's the latter, then I find that troubling.  I grew up in a very rural area and spent my childhood roaming the woods.  We made forts, tree houses, swings, etc.  I'd hate to think that today's children, who already have a deficit of outdoor experiences, are being told that the woods is a "hands-off zone".

[Joshua Szulecki]

I'm curious about this environmental camp: was the message of LNT applied to public lands and parks, or to any forest?  If it's the latter, then I find that troubling.  I grew up in a very rural area and spent my childhood roaming the woods.  We made forts, tree houses, swings, etc.  I'd hate to think that today's children, who already have a deficit of outdoor experiences, are being told that the woods is a "hands-off zone".

You know, that is a good question... I grew up with a similar situation.

Personally, I would never expect landowners to follow leave no trace in dealing with their own land. I mean, if there is a law regulating a specific activity, fine, but otherwise, do what you want on your land. I do follow something like LNT whenever I am on private preserve land, so I'll be allowed back.

That said, the formality that LNT has taken on really makes me uncomfortable. People talk about it like AA. "Take only pictures, leave only footprints" pretty much sums it up in my book. Then again, I can be annoyingly pragmatic.

[JC785]

I agree with a lot of lnt principles, but one thing that gets me upset the most is trash whether it be on the trail or on the side of the road. God created this beautiful planet and we has humans should not leave our trash where it doesn't belong. Also another thing that gets me stirred up is graffiti on rocks and etc. if you are that interested in art by a piece of canvas and go for it!

[SmokeDiver]

You know, that is a good question... I grew up with a similar situation.

Personally, I would never expect landowners to follow leave no trace in dealing with their own land. I mean, if there is a law regulating a specific activity, fine, but otherwise, do what you want on your land. I do follow something like LNT whenever I am on private preserve land, so I'll be allowed back.

That said, the formality that LNT has taken on really makes me uncomfortable. People talk about it like AA. "Take only pictures, leave only footprints" pretty much sums it up in my book. Then again, I can be annoyingly pragmatic.

Furthermore landowners usually own land to be used for a purpose, be it commercial or recreational. Large tracts of land are used for mining of clay, harvesting of trees, and hunting. I'd say that about kills LNT right there. I'd say LNT doesn't even apply there. You should respect any property that is not YOURS specifically. As for our private forests in Coffee County, I treat them about the same as I would any body else's. I want them to be pristine but unfortunately that's not going to happen in an agricultural area. You have pests, runoff from herbicide, insecticide, fertilizer, poachers, wild pigs and everything else out there affecting it. So what if I take an antler or shell?

If you're looking for woodland treasures these are the places to do it. Many landowners won't care as long as you are upfront about why you want to go cruising about their property. Just tell them you want to find some arrowheads or sheds and offer to share your findings. Private land is the place to do it, not our parks and national forests.

I'm a supporter of bringing out what you bring in and only that. I love snapping photos since digital cameras have eliminated the hassle of buying and processing film. The most aggravating thing to me though is finding beer bottles and cans and food wrappers. This is as big or bigger a problem than people taking stuff out.

[WolfVanZandt]

I am very much against leave-no-trace ethics and I could write a book about why but a few points....

It's unnatural.....wh at animals can you think of that would share it.

Humans have this odd belief that you can make positive changes in the ecosystem by studying it and making plans to modify it in a well thought out manner. Science has certain well defined limits and chaos is one limiting factor. Nature is full of chaos and you can't predict what behaviors are going to cause in the long run. There are ways of dealing with chaos but, in this case, science isn't the best track to take. LNT assumes that, if you don't change anything, you can't hurt it. By simply being there, you've already changed things and, because of chaos, you can't predict whether your "small changes" have damaged things any less than the big changes caused by a non-LNT person.

Entities communicate by their traces. That's how creatures relate - communication by traces. So it's not whether you leave traces or not but what messages are you leaving?

Since people started living in cities, humanity has progressively divorced itself more and more from nature until it's practically a parallel (and antagonistic) force (at least, most people tacitly dichotomize  between Nature and Humanity). We're becoming more and more hemmed in as Man continues their "conquest" of nature. You can't hardly walk out your front door without being on someone else's property - and they don't want you there. Most people simply aren't comfortable outside their houses.

LNT, as far as I'm concerned, is just one more big step away from nature. It's acceptance that, since we're not nature, we shouldn't leave our mark on nature.

It's a good intention but a very bad idea.

[DavidR]

Most people simply aren't comfortable outside their houses.

You must know my girlfriend...lol . She got a migraine the last time she thought she was going to have to go camping. That's a shame imo.

As for LNT, well it just doesn't seem that complicated. Until this debate, I had never even read the LNT principles. After reading them I found that I had been doing all of those things just by being considerate of what I do. I agree with many of the previous posters concerning trash. It amazes me the amount of rubish I encounter deep in the woods. I often think, "who would carry all this beer in glass bottles, full cans of beans, and other heavy stuff this far out in the woods?" That's a lot off effort to be stupid. Rarely I pack others trash out because when I find it I'm day 1 into a 3 day hike and don't want to carry tons of dirty garbage around since I'll not be near a trail head. I have carried it to a marker a few miles from a trail head in hopes that another day hiker would carry it the rest of the way. How do you handle this?

[Lostsheep]

I'm curious about this environmental camp: was the message of LNT applied to public lands and parks, or to any forest?  If it's the latter, then I find that troubling.  I grew up in a very rural area and spent my childhood roaming the woods.  We made forts, tree houses, swings, etc.  I'd hate to think that today's children, who already have a deficit of outdoor experiences, are being told that the woods is a "hands-off zone".

Private property is not governed by LNT. What you do on YOUR property doesn't matter. And nobody from LNT will beat the principles in your head for not following them on YOUR property. As kids we (my family) built forts all the time and didn't worry about it.

It's the pristine wilderness, national parks, and areas open to the public that they are mostly concerned about. It's the idea that if we show a little respect then at some point, everyone will be able to enjoy it longer.

[AlabamaDan]

I'm curious about this environmental camp: was the message of LNT applied to public lands and parks, or to any forest?  If it's the latter, then I find that troubling.  I grew up in a very rural area and spent my childhood roaming the woods.  We made forts, tree houses, swings, etc.  I'd hate to think that today's children, who already have a deficit of outdoor experiences, are being told that the woods is a "hands-off zone".

Except for this incident, I was really pleased with the camp and honestly (except for this) they didn't try to push an agenda just get the kids to think about the world and make good choices.  Their wasn't any specific LNT taught, just an overall theme of taking care of the world, living with the animals and nature around us - not against it, things like that.  Actually, they were making the woods a place to be comfortable with.  We spent most of the week in the woods, rain or shine.  The only time we were indoors was meals and sleeping for the most part.

As for practicing LNT on private lands....I think some manner of it should be practiced at all times everywhere - especially trash your trash.

[JustADude]

I notice that folks here keep saing National Park and one poster has pointed out that Bankhead is NOT a National Park. I think that makes a difference.

I have been places in Bankhead where there may not be another person walk in a year. If I picked up a seed pod there, or pulled a flower, or broke a limb on a tree, I don't think the world or Bankhead would be any less because of my action.

[AlabamaDan]

JustaDude I agree that there should be some common sense involved with LNT and it sounds like you have plenty and are using it wisely.