Trail Maintenance in Sipsey

[Lostsheep]

Some of my scouts were talking about possibly getting in with the ranger station and performing some needed trail maintenance around the wilderness. Would this be something that us as a group would like and benefit from? or do you currently enjoy the way it is setup now?

Examples:
Better trail signs at intersections.
Mileage signs at points throughout the trails.
Blazes on certain trees along the trails.
Map boxes located at the trailheads.
Boulders/ropes/cables at well traveled known river crossings.

I know some of these wouldn't happen, but some of these could happen. What says AlaTrails? Keep it the way it is, or try to improve any on it?

[SmokeDiver]

Personally, I like having the creek crossings like they are. It looks like someone removed major rocks from the Borden Creek crossing to 209 to help save people from injury. I like the feeling that I'm doing it old school. As far as blazes and trail markers, I'm kind of mixed on this one. I'd say no to the blazes, but yes to a post at trail forks. I've always felt the blazes were unnecessary when you have trails that are marked at the forks.  Map boxes at the trailheads would be a good thing to have. While I wouldn't want any of the trails widened, removing felled trees would help trails more accessible to families with yougsters and people with disabilities.

[DavidR]

The only thing I'd like to see done is all the downed trees cleaned up. I'm happier without all the blazes and other markers on the trail.

[AlabamaDan]

As much as I think the Scouts need good projects like this, I like the wildness of the Sipsey/BNF without all that stuff.  Let's me imagine how things might have been for Lewis and Clark or something.  On the other hand, the Pinhoti is probably perfect for such a project.

[Carnot]

Removing fallen trees and other obstacles helps to prevent the trail from widening and splitting off into multiple routes.

[Uncle Wayne]

Some of my scouts were talking about possibly getting in with the ranger station and performing some needed trail maintenance around the wilderness. Would this be something that us as a group would like and benefit from? or do you currently enjoy the way it is setup now?

Examples:
Better trail signs at intersections.
Mileage signs at points throughout the trails.
Blazes on certain trees along the trails.
Map boxes located at the trailheads.
Boulders/ropes/cables at well traveled known river crossings.

I know some of these wouldn't happen, but some of these could happen. What says AlaTrails? Keep it the way it is, or try to improve any on it?

Your attitude is commendable but it is supposed to be a wilderness, which admittingly is an impossibility with the use / abuse it receives.  If your scouts really want a project that will help all who enjoy the Sipsey wilderness, have them pick up each piece of litter they see along the trail.  My scout troop did that once from the Gum Pond trailhead to the Big Tree.  We picked up 43 pounds of trash!  That taught them a valuable lesson.

None of the "examples" you listed as possible improvements would improve the wilderness.  It would do quite the opposite.  As the district ranger told me when I suggested building a rope bridge across Borden creek at it confluence with Sipsey; "it would take an act of congress to allow that."

If we do anything to the Sipsey, lets help it be as much a wilderness as it can be.  There are all kind of maps available with trail designations and mileage listed of the Sipsey. I'm against adding anything that is not already there.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't do trail maintenance if for no other reason than to protect the area around the trail.  But even trail maintenance must be done with hand tools, no power tools allowed. And even then, the FS requires special training to use a crosscut saw and they only offer it once per year.

The best thing we can do when we visit the Sipsey is to pack out more trash than we pack in. That's a project everyone can take part in without needing anyone's approval.  And there's plenty for everyone to pack out.

[MobileBackpacker]

Your attitude is commendable but it is supposed to be a wilderness, which admittingly is an impossibility with the use / abuse it receives.  If your scouts really want a project that will help all who enjoy the Sipsey wilderness, have them pick up each piece of litter they see along the trail.  My scout troop did that once from the Gum Pond trailhead to the Big Tree.  We picked up 43 pounds of trash!  That taught them a valuable lesson.

None of the "examples" you listed as possible improvements would improve the wilderness.  It would do quite the opposite.  As the district ranger told me when I suggested building a rope bridge across Borden creek at it confluence with Sipsey; "it would take an act of congress to allow that."

If we do anything to the Sipsey, lets help it be as much a wilderness as it can be.  There are all kind of maps available with trail designations and mileage listed of the Sipsey. I'm against adding anything that is not already there.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't do trail maintenance if for no other reason than to protect the area around the trail.  But even trail maintenance must be done with hand tools, no power tools allowed. And even then, the FS requires special training to use a crosscut saw and they only offer it once per year.

The best thing we can do when we visit the Sipsey is to pack out more trash than we pack in. That's a project everyone can take part in without needing anyone's approval.  And there's plenty for everyone to pack out.

couldnt of said it better

[Lostsheep]

Very nicely put UncleWayne! Very nice. 43lbs of trash is quite a bit. We've picked up our fair share, but not 43lbs worth. KUDOS TO YOU AND YOUR TROOP.

I'm glad I posed the question and I'm even more grateful you all gave an answer. I'll talk with the ranger district and the troop and bring up ONLY the removal/relocation of the fallen trees. I'm not promising this will happen, but I will mention that this is the ONLY project, we as a troop would do.

It is a wilderness, and it should be kept that way. Personally, I know the trails, and I know how to navigate them. I agree that blazes could be uncalled for.

Thanks guys. I'm glad you all feel this way, and it's good to hear it.

[Jackalope]

The best thing we can do when we visit the Sipsey is to pack out more trash than we pack in. That's a project everyone can take part in without needing anyone's approval.  And there's plenty for everyone to pack out.

I can commit to that!

[SmokeDiver]

What about the axe? Do you have to go through any special training with the FS to use that in clearing downed trees? I was just curious because I'm much faster with an axe than a saw. Chopping wood is a great workout too!

[Lostsheep]

Good question Smoke. I don't know.

The only thing I've ever seen is the crosscut saw mentioned, so your guess is as good as mine.

[AlabamaDan]

43 Pounds of Trash!  WOW!  I've been trying to think of a good LNT project for my 8-9 year old cub scouts and I think that is definately on the list.  We could do a day hike, specifically looking for trash to bring out.  Are there any areas that are more littered than others?

[Lostsheep]

Personally, I noticed LOTS of beer cans around the Randolph trailhead. We carried some out Sun, but the amount there was just amazing.

[Uncle Wayne]

43 Pounds of Trash!  WOW!    Are there any areas that are more littered than others?

Most of our trash came from the old roadbed that the wagon trains used.  In fact, according to my journal, we picked up 40 pounds along the road bed and 3 pounds from the trail 204 trailhead and the Sipsey River through east Bee Branch canyon. I've noticed that anywhere the wagon trains went,  or horseriders for that matter, there was always a lot more trash.  The wagon trains thru the wilderness are probably a thing of the past now as the wilderness is slowly consuming the old road beds and it would take a tremendous amount of work to clear them for a wagon.

[AlabamaDan]

Most of our trash came from the old roadbed that the wagon trains used.  In fact, according to my journal, we picked up 40 pounds along the road bed and 3 pounds from the trail 204 trailhead and the Sipsey River through east Bee Branch canyon. I've noticed that anywhere the wagon trains went,  or horseriders for that matter, there was always a lot more trash.  The wagon trains thru the wilderness are probably a thing of the past now as the wilderness is slowly consuming the old road beds and it would take a tremendous amount of work to clear them for a wagon.

So were you picking up 100 year old trash?  I'm confused.

[SmokeDiver]

Haha, I'm getting flashbacks of playing the Oregon Trail game on the old Apple computers we had in grade school. "You have wandered off the trail!"

"SmokeDiver has died of dysentery!"

[Jackalope]

 The wagon trains thru the wilderness are probably a thing of the past now as the wilderness is slowly consuming the old road beds and it would take a tremendous amount of work to clear them for a wagon.

One Saturday back in May or June there was a huge group of horse riders coming down the old Northwest Road returning to the Thompson Creek trail head. I talked to a couple of them and they said they just got back from an 18 mile loop. I can't remember what they said the loop was but in the group there were a couple of horse drawn two wheeled vehicles. They weren't really wagons I suppose and I really don't know quite what to call them but they looked to be constructed from old car axles. I remember being surprised they were able to pass down the parts of the old Northwest Road I was familiar with.

[AlabamaDan]

Thought of a good LNT projects for the scouts in Sipsey that I think everyone would agree on....fire ring maintenance.   Lots of people toss their trash into the fire rings to burn, but honestly it doesn't all burn you know.  Take a shovel and screen, filter the dirt in the fire rings and take the trash out of them.  Also, perhaps some of the fire rings are too full and need some removed.  Maybe the ring just needs more/less rocks.

Speaking of more and less...are there too many rings in a certain space?  Have them disassemble such rings and make the area look natural.

Thoughts?

[Joshua Szulecki]

Most of our trash came from the old roadbed that the wagon trains used.  In fact, according to my journal, we picked up 40 pounds along the road bed and 3 pounds from the trail 204 trailhead and the Sipsey River through east Bee Branch canyon. I've noticed that anywhere the wagon trains went,  or horseriders for that matter, there was always a lot more trash.  The wagon trains thru the wilderness are probably a thing of the past now as the wilderness is slowly consuming the old road beds and it would take a tremendous amount of work to clear them for a wagon.

Saw a wagon there a few weeks back, believe it or not. They were much like Jackalope describes, metal trailer with a car axle. They were using donkeys. And unfortunately, somebody has been machete-clearing the edges of the old roadbed, which leaves punji sticks all over.

I totally agree with your assesment on the blazes, signs, etc...

Oh, and... Peperony and chease has died from Cholera.

[Uncle Wayne]

So were you picking up 100 year old trash?  I'm confused.

After the roads were blocked off with locked gates, a person with a wagon could get a key to the gates and could actually ride on a mule, donkey or horse drawn wagon through the wilderness on the old road beds.  I've seen 10 wagons at a time in the train back in the day.  Instead of carrying trash out with them, it seems they dumped all they could along the road beds.  They are all rubber wheeled wagons of various shapes and sizes.