"Pink E. Burns Cabin" Arsonists indicted

[acousticdream]

Lets see if I have it stright.  Pink Burns was just a farmer and an entertaining liar. 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. But you don't have to be disrespectful and call him a liar. He was a story teller - and a good one at that. Like most, his stories were a mixture of fact and fiction. Having known the man, I doubt he'd want these kids sitting in prison for most of their lives - he'd probably say "hook em to a mule, give em a shovel and axe, TEACH them a lesson. They won't learn much sitting in jail watching TV.

[jaybird]

I think you and your family and the community you are a part of need to admit that you have a much bigger problem and stop blaming the Forest Service.  I, too, have a MS in Biology, and lived and worked in the Piedmont area for 2 years.  I know what the teens in that area do for fun.  Forest Service 500 has had many cars burned and pushed into ditches on weekends.  How do I know?  My students would tell me.  I know what family has had the only member ever convicted to death row in Alabama for simply being a drug kingpin.  It's right off the trail near Maxwell Gap.  I taught the guy's nephew.  I know why over 400 houses in nearby Piedmont are on ACTIVE drug surveillance, with black SUV's constantly patrolling up and down the town's streets.  Were you aware that your community and surrounding area is listed as the #3 active drug region in the United States of America? 

To blame the shape of the inside of the house on the Forest Service is a sham.  It's the "locals" who put it that way.  It's the "locals" who burned it down.  Pink would be hanging his head in shame at his neighbors, not patting them on the back and waxing ecstatic about some lesson.

[wirerat123]

How about instead of a peeing contest about who knows what about what more, or who should be this or that, We just say our piece about what we think would be appropriate in this type of case and move along smartly?

A large amount of forest and historical landmark related community service, and probation is about right in my opinion.

I understand the strife that one may feel when something like this happens to something they hold dear.  The issue is you shouldn't let emotion over ride common sense when it comes to cases such as these.

As to who has what education in what, or knows who, or is of conservative or liberal opinion (I don't find being called conservative or liberal offending myself, so people just need to stop using those terms as a derogatory term, either side of that argument has it's fair share of issues it needs to work out.), affiliation with the offenders, blah blah, well, who cares?  it doesn't make one opinion any more valid than the other.  That's why they are called opinions and not facts.

The kids need to be held accountable for their actions, we can make suggestions about what is the right thing to do all day long.  The bottom line to that is this:

In the long run it's not up to us what the punishment is, or should be, it's up to the justice system we Americans have in place right now, however good or poor that may be.

[dogwood]

Wow, what an interesting thread!  I'll have to agree with Wirerat on letting the courts handle the punishment.  However, i think that restitution is always in order.  Allowing them to sit in prison is one way, but i like the idea of working a lot better(i'm sure that they would, also!).  Trail maintenance, building a shelter, etc isn't a bad idea. 

[jaybird]

How about instead of a peeing contest about who knows what about what more, or who should be this or that, We just say our piece about what we think would be appropriate in this type of case and move along smartly?

The last time I checked, it was called debate.......... ..

[wirerat123]

The last time I checked, it was called debate.......... ..

Last time I checked those that feel the need to start throwing out pointless credentials to try and justify their side of the debate were failing to make a reasonable point.

All I hear is "Well I'm this and know that, so I'm smarter.".  "No, I'm this and did that, so I'm smarter.".  "Well, I knew this person who knew that, so I'm smarter.".

At best is muddies up the points of those actually making points rather than swinging your e-peens at each other.

That's my opinion, and nothing more than my opinion. 

[jaybird]

swinging your e-peens at each other....

That's just plain crude.  Either add something to the debate, or get out.

[treelover47]

15-20 years......jaybi rd, i hope the day never comes that someone you love, needs mercy.  work, work, work, work, and then work more!  clear the trails, go to the camps and clean bathrooms, walk miles cleaning trash from the forest roads, build shelters, pick up rocks, anything and do it for a long, long time!!!!! but 15-20 years.....for one STUPID mistake.   

[wirerat123]

That's just plain crude.  Either add something to the debate, or get out.

And what exactly gives you the right to tell me to get out of a thread?  I offered my opinion, and offered my opinion on the so-called debate and how it's being handled.  If you don't like it, then that's your issue.  You do come off as very combative, and a little overzealous.  It's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

My opinion is we shouldn't muddy up the thread, but now I'm being hipocritical by responding to you, do as you please it's a free country, and if the mods see fit, they'll clean it up.  My opinion differs from yours and that's ok.

Probation, and community service.  Nothing more need to be done.  Sending kids away for long periods of time often times just makes them more effecient criminals in the long run.

[acousticdream]

I think you and your family and the community you are a part of need to admit that you have a much bigger problem and stop blaming the Forest Service.  I, too, have a MS in Biology, and lived and worked in the Piedmont area for 2 years.  I know what the teens in that area do for fun.  Forest Service 500 has had many cars burned and pushed into ditches on weekends. . . . Were you aware that your community and surrounding area is listed as the #3 active drug region in the United States of America? 

To blame the shape of the inside of the house on the Forest Service is a sham.  It's the "locals" who put it that way.  It's the "locals" who burned it down.  Pink would be hanging his head in shame at his neighbors, not patting them on the back and waxing ecstatic about some lesson.

All the more reason to reach out to the young folks of OUR community and share our knowledge and passion for the areas natural heritage. Drugs are a huge problem in the area and Pink's cabin was a very popular place for the local "cookers". And Rabbittown is not really a part of the Piedmont community - it's more of a member of the White Plains communities now. But imagine if we could somehow manage to get these kids involved in the great outdoors and away from drugs and destroying property. If you'll go back a look, I blamed the people who were coming in looking for hidden treasure for tearing the place apart - not the FS. The cabin was in terrible shape when they got it, but they could have secured it to try and keep the vandals out. Imagine all of the trail work that these three kids could do - remove debris, paint markers, post signs, maintain shelters, cut grass, . . . the list could go on and on - and they could do this for ten years. What will they do in prison - not a darn thing but watch tv. Personally, I'd rather see them working and learning, not just sitting there getting dumber and learning how to be a real "thug" while they're in the slammer.

this IS a friendly debate - not a micturition contest.

[stumpjump]

If you are from this area.... you know that Anniston is not in the Rabbittown community and that Lineville is not even in calhoun county. So when you say "locals" burned it down you are wrong sir.

[squidbilly]

Well I vote for community service (and lots of it) vs incarceration.  We, as taxpayers and recreational forest users, will be better served by that sort of verdict.   So will the perpetrators.

I'm not from the area, (I live in Gadsden) but I consider myself a local because I am there a lot. Dugger Mtn Wilderness is one of my favorite places to hike.  To those who knew Pink, I guess nothing we could build will replace what was lost.  Perhaps whatever is done with the property, it should reflect the current recreational users needs.  Although I didn't know him, I can't help but think Mr.Burns would want that.  Just think how happy it would have made him, knowing how much we have enjoyed his place. 

 

[jaybird]

Let's not quibble over the meaning of "local."  The statistics I was quoting from a FS Ranger about drug activity in the "area" are for the forest in general -- including Cherokee, Cleburne, Talladega, and Clay counties.  I didn't mean to imply that you must live on Rabbittown Road to be a local.  If you're from Tuscaloosa or Birmingham, you obviously wouldn't be a local.  Heflin, Anniston, and even Waldo or Talladega-- yep, you're a local.

I apologize to some of you if I come across as overzealoused.  I call it passion.  I want to continue hearing other points-of-view and learning why others feel the way they do.  If you want to be a part of that same journey, let's continue sharing thoughts and leave the electronic weenie references for Freud. 

Here are some stats I found from the website Interfire.org.  They are somewhat dated, but I found it interesting at the difference between average state and federal sentences for arson.

1.) The U.S. Department of Justice has performed a number of special studies of those convicted of arson that provide useful insights into the arsonist population. According to one done in 1988, 31 percent of state prison inmates whose most serious offense was arson said they were under the influence of illegal drugs when they committed their offenses, and 39 percent said they'd used illegal drugs daily in the month before they committed their offenses.(3) Incarcerated arsonists tend to differ from arsonists in general in that fewer of them are juveniles or first offenders.

2.) Of the 0.7 percent of state prisoners released in 1983 whose most serious offense was arson, 55.3 percent were rearrested for some new crime within three years, 38.5 percent were reconvicted within three years, and 32.3 percent were reincarcerated within three years.(4) All these percentages were considerably lower than the overall recidivism rates and even further below the recidivism rate for other property crimes.

3.) The average sentence served by an arsonist in a state prison is 26 months if it's a first release from prison. Otherwise, the average sentence is 19 months. Half of all arsonists released from prison served 18 months or fewer if it was a first release, 10 months otherwise.

4.) The average length of a federal prison sentence imposed on arsonists in 1990 was 48 months, with half sentenced to 36 months or less.(5) Half of the arsonists released from federal prison had served at least 33 months, which is nearly twice the time served in state prisons. Of course, the sentence served is typically much shorter than the sentence imposed.

5.) According to a study of 178 federal court cases from 1980 to 1989 in which arson was the most serious offense listed for the suspect, the government prosecuted 43 percent of the cases in district court, referred 7 percent to U.S. magistrates, and declined to prosecute 50 percent. A study of 160 arson cases prosecuted and terminated in U.S. district court in the same period found that 66 percent led to convictions and 23 percent were dismissed. Eleven percent of these cases weren't characterized, but they were presumably acquittals.(6)

6.) Once released, more than half of those who were incarcerated are rearrested for something, though not necessarily arson, within three years.

7.) Older juvenile firesetters typically have serious psychological problems, generally traceable to one of several specific types of stresses, including child abuse and learning disabilities.

[camel]

Its about consequences and being held accountable for your actions. I have not seen this much forum action since "guns" on the trail was debated years ago. Now - if the fire had spread and killed a person that was in a tent on the trail- is that murder. Having raised children and seeing the children of good parents go to jail- keep the parents out of this. Its a felony and the destruction of federal propery carries a consequence- they need to pay it- maybe their community service is to tell others about that consequence.

Camel

[weathermansam]

~This comparing of 'smarts' is silly, and adds nothing to the conversation.  Having 70+hrs of grad courses in geosciences doesn't make me a GIS God.  Having no formal education in horticulture/botany doesn't make me a moron in the field, either.

~If the avg sentence term is 2 yrs, what's the problem with tacking on 1,000hrs of community service?  If it hits them what they did was wrong, then they have a chance to change how they live their lives.  

~I could delve into a rant about stereotypes and the overuse of statistics, but what's the point?  Let's just say I'm living proof there are anomalies and leave it at that.  

~People can be idiots.  I believe in second chances.  

~Liberals, Conservatives, Middle-grounders, llamas, ostriches--I don't care where you fall.  Objectivity, understanding, and saying things in moderation is a beautiful thing.  Put the sensationalism and fanaticism aside, and maybe you'll get some sincerity out of these 'kids'.  

[treelover47]

15-20 years......jaybi rd, i hope the day never comes that someone you love, needs mercy.  work, work, work, work, and then work more!  clear the trails, go to the camps and clean bathrooms, walk miles cleaning trash from the forest roads, build shelters, pick up rocks, anything and do it for a long, long time!!!!! but 15-20 years.....for one STUPID mistake.   

[treelover47]

[weathermansam]

02/28/09--Inside of Pinky's Cabin.  The wallpaper may be strewn, but the structure itself was still very sound.  

"Pink E. Burns Cabin" Arsonists indicted

a friend's photo:

"Pink E. Burns Cabin" Arsonists indicted

[jaybird]

The photos are awesome and show how it was ripe for a renovation!  It would've been a great visitor's center.  200 years had taken it's toll for certain.  Sam, I think your first photo is about where the Molotov cocktail would've landed.

[jaybird]

A very similar case from 2009.

http://highknob.org/news/news_bhc_01_21_09.html

Guilty Plea In High Knob Tower Fire
By The Continuous News Desk, Bristol Herald Courier
January 21, 2009
ABINGDON, Va.

With a five-year mandatory minimum sentence hanging over his head, a 23-year-old Coeburn man pleaded guilty Tuesday to burning the High Knob observation tower.

“I set fire to the High Knob Tower, I lied to investigators … and I helped set fire to the bathrooms down at Hanging Rock [Recreation Area],” Nicholas Owens said in response to a question from U.S. Magistrate Judge Pamela Meade Sargent.

Owens, who did not have a plea agreement with prosectuors, had just joined the Coeburn Volunteer Fire Department when the fires were set.

Neither he nor his attorney had any comment after Sargent found him competent to stand trial and recommended that the court accept the plea.

Owens pleaded guilty Tuesday to three charges connected to the Halloween 2007 arson of the tower and a restroom facility that also was on national forest land. He pleaded guilty to arson of a U.S. government facility, arson on U.S. government property and making false statements to law enforcement officers.

The maximum penalty is 50 years in prison and a $750,000 fine. His sentencing is scheduled for April 8 in Big Stone Gap, Va.

His co-defendant, 24-year-old Christopher Hyatt, pleaded guilty in June to arson on U.S. government property and making false statements to law enforcement. His sentencing is set for April 9, also in Big Stone Gap.

“We’re just glad the case has been resolved,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Randy Ramseyer said. “The investigators did a good job of bringing the defendants to justice.”

The three-story tower, which was at an elevation of 4,162 feet and overlooked five states, became a community hangout that also drew tourists to the area. Both it and the bathroom facility were destroyed in the fires.

As Owens and Hyatt await sentencing, members of the community continue their work to raise the $500,000 needed to rebuild the tower, said Rita McReynolds, finance chairwoman for the High Knob Enhancement Corp., which was created for that purpose. So far, the organization has raised more than $156,000, including a recent $75,000 donation from Cumberland Resources, a local coal company.

McReynolds said the effort for the Wise County landmark began shortly after the fire, in December of 2007.

“There was just a tremendous outcry from folks to rebuild it, so that process began immediately,” she said. “We’re all sad it happened [but] we’ve moved beyond that and we’re looking forward to the future, to the tower being rebuilt bigger and better.”

McReynolds said the tower will be rebuilt with materials that won’t burn.

“It’s not only a historical attraction, it’s near and dear to our hearts. That area really means a lot to folks in Wise County, Scott County and the city of Norton,” she said. “It’s just a place we all grew up around.”

A 23-year-old Coeburn man pleaded guilty Tuesday to setting fire to the High Knob observation tower and a nearby restroom facility on Halloween 2007, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Roanoke announced.

Nicholas Owens pleaded guilty to all charges against him, without the benefit of a plea agreement.

He was charged with one count of burning buildings owned by the United States, one count of burning buildings with the special territorial jurisdiction of the United States and one count of lying to investigators, according to the press release from the attorney’s office.

His co-defendant, Christopher Domonic Hyatt, previously pleaded guilty to the charges against him. In the early morning hours of Oct. 31, 2007, Owens set fire to the High Knob tower in Wise County and, together with Hyatt, set fire to a restroom located in the Hanging Rock Recreation Area in Scott County, the release states.

Both buildings were destroyed. The structures were located within the Jefferson National Forest.

“The senseless actions of these two men destroyed a beloved and historic structure and was a tragedy for the entire community,” U. S. Attorney Julia C. Dudley said in Tuesday’s news release. “I am happy that both defendants have taken responsibility for their crimes. Perhaps now, the community can put this behind them and continue to move forward in the effort to rebuild the High Knob Observation Tower.”

Owens will be sentenced April 8 in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Virginia in Big Stone Gap.

The case was investigated by Special Agent Larry Fisher of the U.S. Forest Service Law Enforcement and Investigations, the Wise County Sheriff’s Office, Norton Police Department and Coeburn Police Department. The Coeburn Volunteer Fire Department and Norton Fire Department provided valuable assistance in the investigation.

Assistant U. S. Attorney Randy Ramseyer is prosecuting the case, according to the news release.
 
Men sentenced to prison for High Knob tower fire
By Suzanne Tate Opinion Page Editor, Bristol Herald Courier
April 8, 2009

Big Stone Gap — Two men who admitted burning the High Knob observation tower in 2007 were sentenced to federal prison Thursday.

Nicholas Owens received 60 months and co-defendant Christopher Hyatt received 37 months.

The fire occurred on Halloween 2007.