"Pink E. Burns Cabin" Arsonists indicted

[weathermansam]

The photos are awesome and show how it was ripe for a renovation!  It would've been a great visitor's center.  200 years had taken it's toll for certain.  Sam, I think your first photo is about where the Molotov cocktail would've landed.

Tossing it on the porch would have done it.  The steps were gone, but I've walked around on top of the porch and it supported my weight [~145lbs] just fine.  The ceiling in the kitchen area had some serious leakage around where the stove vent would have been when I visited in 2009.

A more complete gallery of the cabin, from 2004  http://www.weathermansam....4p/102304pinky/index.html

[Firedog]

Wait a minute here...Jay how do you know it was a Molotov Cocktail??? Hmmmmm. You know the incendiary device, anxious to put the perps away, Hmmmm.

JUST KIDDING,,, just trying to lighten this up a bit!

[weathermansam]

Wait a minute here...Jay how do you know it was a Molotov Cocktail??? Hmmmmm. You know the incendiary device, anxious to put the perps away, Hmmmm.

JUST KIDDING,,, just trying to lighten this up a bit!

I conferred with Seth McFarlane, who recollects the incident more like this, though highly inappropriate

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5-iz5hjCEfc&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/5-iz5hjCEfc&rel=0</a>

I think I ended my run on the last debate with a family guy reference.  I think it's time to take these wonderful sinus infection/flu medicines and escort myself to dreamland.  Ciao. 

Oh, and folks, take a load off and go pilfer through some of those photos from the payne creek hike I put up.  I never knew the Sipsey River was so scenic, some incredibly cool bluffs. 

[jaybird]

Wait a minute here...Jay how do you know it was a Molotov Cocktail??? Hmmmmm. You know the incendiary device, anxious to put the perps away, Hmmmm.

JUST KIDDING,,, just trying to lighten this up a bit!

Yeah, I thought about that to myself -- realizing that I know way too much about this event.  But, it really touched me because I love the trail and the history attached to it.  The Molotov materials, i remember reading, were found in the getaway car with the 3 several miles down the road.  There shouldn't be a problem with evidence.

[Littlelady46]

I have this saying that I try to remember in situations like this: Never argue with an idiot because onlookers may not be able to tell you apart.

I am not here to debate. I am not interested in spouting off my credentials. I am here to state a fact or two and maybe give my opinion.

I knew Pink Burns and had visited his home while he was alive. My Dad knew him well. He was a sweet old fellow, funny, colorful, one heck of a storyteller, and probably the last of his kind. But Pink was not perfect, and as I know, he was certainly not always 'legal' with his trapping business. I am not trying to tarnish his memory in the least. Pink would tell you the same thing, like he told at Jack Benny's store many times. Pink Burns was a well known fixture in the community, a guy that most people thought a lot of. His old homeplace was something that people enjoyed seeing when they passed by, a reminder of days gone by and a time long past. Pink was not a wealthy man, nor was his family wealthy. He lived a simple life. That home was barely habitable when he lived in it and it certainly was not livable after his death. Was it beyond repair? Probably not. Was it worth repairing? Probably not. Am I saying its condition makes the crime of arson any less of a crime? Certainly not. I do think the entire situation is drawing attention from a few zealots who give crude opinions without a ton of knowledge....or compassion.

I can look at this from the inside out. I have information some of you don't have. I know full well how wrong some of your comments and opinions are. It is a bit comical that one of you is so cocky and confident in your assumptions... especially when I know how wrong you are. Don't believe everything you hear and never believe all that is reported in the news.

I can look at this with a different perspective. See, one of the teens involved is my nephew. I am not ashamed of him. I am very ashamed of what he did, but not of him. You people have no right to call these kids names and make comments about how horrible they and their parents are. You don't know them. As for my nephew, he is a loving, sweet, gentle young man. There is no malice in him. He is an incredibly talented artist. His math skills could put most of you to shame. He is a bit of a brain, a computer nerd. Those attributes sometimes made it hard for him to make friends. He is a follower. All he ever wanted was to fit in somewhere. Am I saying the others are 'bad kids' that led him astray? Not at all. I don't really know them. I would never go so far as to assume anything about them. I DO know that they are both some mother's child and I know those parents love their kids just like my nephew is loved. I know their hearts are broken just like our hearts are broken. I know what it feels like to cry until my pillow is wet because someone I love is in jail. I know how scary this is for a family. I know how heartbreaking it is to know those kids are facing living the best part of their adult life in prison rather than going to college and starting a family and career. I know how different things look when you are on the inside looking out rather than on the outside looking in.

I want you to look back to your teenage and young adult years. Did you EVER do anything against the law? Drink under age? Drive with a buzz or worse yet, drunk? Shoplift? Steal? Speed? Trespass? Smoke a little pot, maybe do a few drugs? Did you ever do anything your parents would be ashamed of if they found out? Did you ever willfully go against the values your parents instilled in you? Did you ever do anything you hope NO ONE ever finds out? I doubt any of you can honestly answer 'no' to all of those questions. I can't. I drove drunk once when I was 17. See, we all made some stupid mistakes and choices as teenagers. Does that make us bad people? Did those stupid choices prevent us from becoming good people as adults? In most cases, probably not. My grandmother had a saying she would always quote when one of her grandchildren did something stupid. She said "You can't put an adults mind in a child's head."  Wise woman, my Grandmother.

I am so very glad that the future of these kids is not in the hands of the few who would place the value of an old shack of a house higher than the value of a human. I am glad it rests in the hands of the Highest Judge and the Court System. Arson is a crime. It deserves punishment. I just feel the punishment should fit the crime. I hope the judge is more compassionate and sensible than some of you who have made posts. It would be my greatest desire to see a judge place stiff probation requirements on them...like requiring them all to get an education, maintain a full-time job, and work their rear ends off clearing the trails on both sides of the Burns Trailhead. I think extended prison time would be so very counterproductiv e and so sad.

Be ever so careful what you judge in others lives. It has been my experience that what I judge in others will be judged in me...one way or the other. When you become perfect, maybe you can judge...but not now, not yet.
 
 

[weathermansam]

Heated post; you do make good points.  However...

His math skills could put most of you to shame.

You ask us not to assume and judge.  You say you deal with facts.  What knowledge do you have of my math skills, or others here?  You can make the case of saying he's an intelligent kid by saying he's an intelligent kid.  Some will believe you.  However, you run the risk of being seen as someone who heaps praise because they're a relative by making baseless pointed statements in this kind of debate/situation. 

He is a bit of a brain, a computer nerd. Those attributes sometimes made it hard for him to make friends. He is a follower. All he ever wanted was to fit in somewhere.

I can associate with this.  I was a loner growing up, still am to fair degree, and arguably have more acquaintances than friends.  I am also a stubborn ass mule when it comes to my personal values.  Did I know or were/are friends with people who've done things against the law?  Yes.  Was I present when they engaged in these activities?  No.  They understood my stance in the situation and respected me.  I'm sorry he gave in to peer pressure.  I'm sure he is now too. 

I just feel the punishment should fit the crime. I think extended prison time would be so very counterproductiv e and so sad.

Agreed.  I do not believe persons their age as a first time offender should be thrown away for 20 years.  No one benefits here.  I said earlier I believe in second chances.  I hold firm to that. 

[stumpjump]

I dont believe the post was "heated". I think it is full of whole hearted emotion and care. The problem with online discussions is that people can add any type of attitude to anything you write. Maybe we should all try to read these post not with the assumption that we are arguing but as a conversation. We all have someone we love. Imagine them in the situation these kids are in. Is your opinion/attitude the same? I have already stated that I would much rather see these three with stiff probation and work requirements ranther than sitting in prison.

[jaybird]

LittleLady, I respect your opinion and your right to give it.  However, it appears to me that you have placed yourself on a little bit of a pedestal with your holier-than-thou attitude.

You used the word “I” 35 times in your post.  You’ve made numerous references to not judging others, yet you’ve done the same thing in referring to those who have posted before. 

It utterly confuses me to no end that someone continues to use the argument that an old shack belonging to an old dirt farmer would be viewed as a lesser crime than say the burning of Helen Keller’s birthplace in north Alabama.  Both are historic.  Both are attached to our past.  The Keller birthplace undoubtedly underwent reconstruction and repair just like was planned for the Burns cabin.  A 200 year-old structure that first served as a schoolhouse and goodness knows what else.  It was on Federal property.  It partially belonged to me as an American. 

As has been stated earlier, it all boils down to actions and consequences.  As a teacher, I see it every day.  It’s why we have laws.  Actions and consequences.  The actions were severe – the consequences should be severe.  If one of the President’s daughters had burned the house, no “soft” punishment would be expected.

Destroying historic places should rank high on our value structure.  Why does place matter? Place shapes who we are and what we will become. A sense of place provides a sense of belonging and of commitment. It is the repository for our shared memories, experiences, and dreams. When people feel connected to a place and the community, emotionally, culturally, and spiritually they are more likely to care for it.

This “shack” was a connection to the past.  It mattered.  By enforcing consequences for its destruction, we honor those who shared it with us.

[weathermansam]

 

I dont believe the post was "heated". I think it is full of whole hearted emotion and care.

Perhaps 'fiery' would have been the better word choice.  It was definitely emotional.  I wasn't attempting to add a slant/attitude to her point.  I attempted to reply fast and point out a few things because there are people on this forum who will wake up, read what she wrote, and tear into it.  

I have had loved ones in jail.  Not for a crime quite this serious, but I understand where she's coming from.  The only beef I had with the post was the accusation that her nephew 'could put most of us to shame' when it comes to math.  It's a baseless accusation, and  it's the same silliness that occurred earlier in this thread with the Freudian metaphors or whatever.  I don't mind calling people on their crap like I expect and want people call me on mine when I blur the line.  

I wasn't being belligerent;  I considered it making her aware of how she phrased something/how something is going to come across to the general public here.  I thought I approached it in a pretty non-combatant manner in the same way you gently pointed out my poor word choice.  Someone could turn it into a lot more than it actually is;  I'd rather preempt that, given the opportunity, if possible.  

I find it interesting that the two of us who have responded to her post tonight generally agree with her, and we don't seem to be the target(s) of her post anyway.  

[Magic City Matt]

This thread is just fine. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. As long as it does not degrade into name calling I will let it continue.
I am with Little Little lady on the punishment fitting the crime. However, that old house was a landmark for many of us.  It was way more then just some old ramshackle. Just clearing the trail won't cut it. I am not entirely sure what is necessary but I am with you on it being something constructive.
I have already called the US attorney's office and told them about alatrails and our current discussion. I don't know if they are planning on following it for purposes of suggestions on sentencing or not but they are aware of it.

m

[weathermansam]

[stupid computer,  accidentally blanked my post and then froze up]

It's late, I don't entirely remember what I posted.  Jay, I don't think she's condoning it, and I understand the use of the I's.  I used 11 in less than a fourth of the space she took up.  They're declarative statements.  It made sense to me. 


I need to quit being the town fool and attempting to mitigate these debates.  I'm done with this one.  Unless someone decides to push my buttons enough,  I'll read, but I'll keep my replies to myself. 

[stumpjump]

  "It partially belonged to me as an American.  "

Before reading this, please understand that this post is not meant to offend anyone. It is not written with harshly intended words.

So, according to you, every American can partially claim a historic monument. It is my belief that what you mean by this is that it is a part of us that does not "belong" to us.
We agree on this.
Why don't we say that everyone "owned" a tiny portion of Pink E. Burns' place and that each person could hypothetically "vote" on this topic. It is my opinion that this discussion was supposed to be about that exact idea. Our "vote" for punishment may be different. It is your right to want to put these kids under the jail so to speak. However, it is the right of others to disagree. My opinion is different from yours.
No one is perfect. We have ALL made mistakes. Myself included.
This is a situation in witch there may be no middle ground. For some, the punishment will be too little. For others, too harsh. It is ok that we all disagree.
( "I"s were avoided just for you.)

[stumpjump]

I find it interesting that the two of us who have responded to her post tonight generally agree with her, and we don't seem to be the target(s) of her post anyway.  

I believe you are right.

[jaybird]

So, according to you, every American can partially claim a historic monument. It is my belief that what you mean by this is that it is a part of us that does not "belong" to us.

The cabin belonged to you and me and every other tax-paying American.  Period.  

Your point is taken about voting (at least from those on this forum).  A single forum does not scientifically represent the feelings of the public.  And, does your hypothetical situation not work the other way?  If we were to go backwards in time, would every person vote to burn the cabin down because it was old, in need of repair, etc.?  And, are not our National Forests the property of the United States of America?  So, shouldn’t every American get a vote?

This one act was so much bigger than the little dilapidated cabin on Rabbittown Road.

[stumpjump]

That is exactly what I said. That EVERYONE has the right just as you do. Of course this forum doesn't represent the "vote" of every American. That is a broad stretch of anything I said. No one would have wanted to burn the place down. I was at the old house place two days ago and it made me sick to think about what happened there. I have memories of that place, as do many others, that are now tarnished by what happened there. My prayers are with you jaybird, to soften the harsh judgement you wish to be given. My prayers are with everyone involved. The family of Pink Burns especially. My brother, and the other two kids facing a lifetime of prison followed by social rejection are in my prayers daily. May God give us all peace no matter what the outcome is. What these kids done was wrong. There should be a punishment for the crime.

[Littlelady46]

Jaybird: I said "I am not here to debate. I am not interested in spouting off my credentials. I am here to state a fact or two and maybe give my opinion." In doing so I used the word 'I' in almost every statement. How novel of me.

Pedestal??  Oh, no. I learned a long time ago that a pedestal was a great place to observe the faults of others but it is a dangerous place to fall from. I have my faults and I am not to proud to admit them.

Oh, one more thing. You stated you knew the family of the first man to get the death penalty in Alabama "simply for being a drug kingpin." Fact is he was a drug kingpin AND he murdered a police informant. If you are going to give a facts, make them accurate.

Weathermansam: I said "His math skills could put most of us to shame." MOST of us. If you are a mathematical wiz then obviously you are not MOST of us so you should not have taken offense. He is very intelligent, stupid at times, but intelligent. I know his I.Q. so it isn't a baseless fact.

I stated a few facts about his character and personality that I felt might shine a bit of light on the situation in hopes that some of you might see these kids as 'people' rather than just someone who you hear about on the news. If I "ran the risk of being seen as someone who heaps praise because they are a relative" then obviously you didn't really read my post. I said I was ashamed of what he did, not of him, but what he did. I feel certain the families of the other 2 involved could point out a few good characteristics of their kids as well. There is something good in all of us. There is a goldmine in all of us, we just have to dig to find it.

I never said he gave in to peer pressure. I didn't even say they led him astray. I have no idea whose idea it was and I would never dare accuse another parents child when I don't know for certain. I said "all he ever wanted was a friend."

If people want to "tear into" me about my post then that is fine. Go ahead. I'm may be a little lady but I am a big person. I think I can handle it. Thanks for having my interest at heart though.

I am glad to see that you, Weathermansam, appear to be a sensible and compassionate person.

Jaybird: I leave you with one last little nugget.....Don't believe everything you think.

I doubt I will post again. I had my say and I clarified myself. Have your opinions, you are all entitled to them. As for me, I loved that old homeplace but I love these kids more. I hope the Judge is merciful in his sentencing. I would hate for them to become statistics. That would be a far greater tragedy.

To all the others: These kids may be felons but they are someones sons and daughter. Have a little bit of compassion. It could be your child.

[weathermansam]

Weathermansam: I said "His math skills could put most of us to shame." MOST of us. If you are a mathematical wiz then obviously you are not MOST of us so you should not have taken offense. He is very intelligent, stupid at times, but intelligent. I know his I.Q. so it isn't a baseless fact.

I stated a few facts about his character and personality that I felt might shine a bit of light on the situation in hopes that some of you might see these kids as 'people' rather than just someone who you hear about on the news. If I "ran the risk of being seen as someone who heaps praise because they are a relative" then obviously you didn't really read my post. I said I was ashamed of what he did, not of him, but what he did. I feel certain the families of the other 2 involved could point out a few good characteristics of their kids as well. There is something good in all of us. There is a goldmine in all of us, we just have to dig to find it.

If people want to "tear into" me about my post then that is fine. Go ahead. I'm may be a little lady but I am a big person. I think I can handle it. Thanks for having my interest at heart though.

I am glad to see that you, Weathermansam, appear to be a sensible and compassionate person.

Ok, but in the post you said "most of you", not "most of us".  It does make a difference in how the sentence sounds.  That's what I took offense too.  You could have said "most of the people I know" or "ranks higher than 95% of his classmates at school" or something and still made the same point. 

As far as the the 'heaps praise' sentence,  I defended you in a later post saying it was obvious you weren't condoning it.  The way you described your nephew gives people the image of the stereotypical, intelligent high school kid who just wants to fit in.  Been there, done that myself.  That's why I related a personal experience.  That's why I followed with he gave in to peer pressure.  That was the impression given off.  Unless told otherwise, that's the typical progression of thought given that line of phrasing with no other information to work with. 

IQ scores are great and dandy, but it's what you do with that ability that means something.  I've known people who rated high on such tests, but have wasted their lives.  I don't find these kind of people intelligent. 

Think about how your post came off.  A first time poster, a declared relative comes into an established community and says my nephew's smarter than you, you people don't know what you're talking about.  The situation is almost cliche.  I don't know how many news stories, how many tv interviews, etc. where someone interviews a relative and that's the general response the public gets.  I'm not doubting what  you're saying is true;  I'm pointing out how this comes across en masse.  I also said I've been in a similar situation with family members in jail, and yes, there is good in those people, but I never would condone what was done.

Go to the debate section and read the "in case the nra members missed it" thread.  My objective was to point out a few things to try and keep things from getting out of hand like that thread did.  I'm sure you're capable of holding your own.  I'm wasn't being mr. muscles defending the damsel in distress.  You were ringing a pair of cowbells in front of a room full of insomniacs with machetes who'd just gotten back to sleep.  All I wanted to do was toss out some earplugs in hopes they'd forget some of the matter.  Didn't work so well on my end. 

I'm willing to bet there's enough drama going on outside of these internet squabbles on everyone's part to deal with.  I know I have more than my share of wanted stress at the moment.  Would it not be senseless and pointless to let a mini soap opera develop here?  I find these debates in the end more detrimental to the community than good anyway. 

I do consider myself sensible and compassionate, and I always want both sides [as many sides as I can get] to a story, regardless of whom is involved.  I am passionate about things I feel strongly about and that passion comes across in your post.  I was more attempting to play editor pointing out things and their phrasing and subtlety prodding if you really meant it the way it sounded. 

[jaybird]

It is appreciated that you took the time to tell us more about your nephew.  It does change my view.  My dictionary defines compassion as -- a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.  Those are my feelings, sympathy and sorrow.  My desire to alleviate the suffering is without question here.  But my desire must be tempered.  The enemy is not the person typing this message.  The enemy is the evil spirit that guided the mission that night. 

So, I feel the need to tell you some more about me, somewhat, in order to show how my opinion came to be.  This debate is not about me.  These statements are not intended to show what a great writer, event planner, organizer, etc. anyone is.  No credentials are being purposely thrown around.  Simply read the words for what they are.

In leading free hikes for the Sierra Club, several buddies came up with an idea to promote the Pinhoti Trail.  Our initial announcement went as follows:

Are you up to Alabama’s best hiking challenge? Over the next 2 years, the Cahaba Group will be leading a series of day hikes covering the entire Pinhoti Trail of East Alabama. With one hike per month, we’ll take 26 months to complete the trail which currently runs from Flagg Mountain in Coosa County, near Weogufka, to the Alabama/Georgia border northeast of Piedmont – some 170+ miles! Make up days will be included for those who miss a day or two. For those who complete the challenge there will be parades, keys to the city of Anniston, memorials erected.....not really. How about a Pinhoti patch for your pack, certificate of completion, maybe a picture in the paper, and the personal satisfaction that you have done something not a lot of people have done. Don’t think you can make the whole trail; come out and hike with us when you can. You might surprise yourself! The hiking will be great. You’ll see Flagg Mountain, Rebecca Mountain, Horn Mountain, Scott Lake, Mt. Cheaha, Pine Glen, Sweetwater Lake, Coleman Lake, Choccolocco Lake, Duggar Mountain, Oakey Mountain, Augusta Mine Ridge, Indian Mountain, and Flagpole Mountain. You’ll see wildflowers and flowering shrubs in the spring. You will see the trees show their colors in the fall. You will hike in quiet woods in the middle of winter. You will huff, puff, fight bugs, and sweat in the summer. And, you will make some pretty good friends along the way. Are you ready for the Pinhoti challenge?

The idea was to promote this incredible trail, which connected to the Georgia Pinhoti Trail, which then connected to the Benton MacKaye Trail, which then connected to the Appalachian Trail, which connected to the International Appalachian Trail.  One could walk from Alabama to Cape Gaspe, Quebec, Canada, if he/she so desired.  And they could enjoy Alabama’s fabulous biodiversity and history on the way.  From the Horn Mountain Fire Tower (on the National Register of Historic Lookouts) and picnic pavilion (built by the Civilian Conservation Corps), to Cheaha State Park (built by the CCC), to the CCC Road with its intricate rock retaining walls and bridge (all built by the CCC), all the way to the Burns Cabin in the north.

Our schedule looked something like this:

Section #   Description   Hike #   Elevation   Mileage   Features   Season   Hike Date
Section 12   FS500 at Duggar/Oakey to Hwy94   1   800'-1700'   8.5   Oakey, shelter   Winter   Dec-08
Section 7   CCC Road to County Road 24   2   750'-900'   7.2   Rockwork   Winter   Dec-08
Section 10    FS500 to CR55   3   900'-1000'   8.4   Canyon, shelter   Winter   Jan-09
Section 11   CR55 to FS500 at Duggar/Oakey   4   846'-2140'   8.8   Dugger   Winter   Feb-09
Section 9   FS500 at RR to FS531 at Lower Shoal   5   936'-1260'   6.6   Views, quiet   Spring   Mar-09
Section 9   FS531 at Lower Shoal to Pine Glen   6   936-1260'   7.0   Rolling, shelter   Spring   Apr-09
Section 7   Cheaha Trailhead to CCC Road   7   1000'-1940'   5.2   Views, shelter   LateSpring   May-09
Section 3   FS603A trailhead to Bull Gap (Roadwalk)   8      11.4   Roadwalk   Summer   Jun-09
Section 12   Hwy94 to US278   9   800'-1700'   7.7   Views   Fall   Oct-09
Section 7   County Road 24 to US 431   10   750'-900'   5.2   Waterfall   Fall   Nov-09
Section 4    Bull Gap to Horn Mtn Fire Tower   11   1180'-1912'   9.9   Views, tower   Winter   Dec-09
Section 13   Salem Church Road to Jackson Chapel Trailhead, GA   12      7.8   Views, shelter   Winter   Jan-10
Section 6   Adam's Gap to Cheaha Trailhead   13   1380'-2344'   11.3   Views   Winter   Feb-10
Section 4    Horn Mtn Fire Tower to Porter's Gap   14   710'-1912   8.1   Views, lake   Spring   Mar-10
Section 10   Pine Glen to FS500 at Coleman Lake   15   900'-1300'   7.9   Water, shelter   Spring   Apr-10
Section 5   Porter's Gap to Clairmont Gap   16   828'-1480'   8.9   Views, rocky   LateSpring   May-10
Section 13   US278 to Salem Church Road   17      5.5   Shelter, iron pit   Summer   Jun-10
Section 8   US 431 to FS500 at RR   18   900'-1200'   9.5   Quiet   Fall   Oct-10
Section 5   Clairmont Gap to Adam's Gap   19   1380'-1750'   6.6   Rocky   Fall   Nov-10
Section 1   Flagg to Hwy 21 (Roadwalk)   20      13.0   CCC Tower   Winter   Dec-10
Section 2   Hwy 21 to FS603A trailhead (Raodwalk)   21      9.8   Roadwalk   Winter   Dec-10
                     
            174.3         

These hikes were somewhat popular with Sierra members.  Over 300 people worked toward their Pinhoti Challenge certificate.  52 people were on the trail the last Saturday in February, some of them from as far away as Pensacola, FL.  About 2/3’s of the group posed for our picture around Pink’s barn, while others milled around his homeplace.  The fire would be that next Tuesday night.  What’s strange is that several of us in the group felt a really eerie feeling being there close to dusk.  Call it a premonition.  To know that we were the last group of hikers to ever stand in a piece of history’s presence will forever haunt me.  Something stands 200 years, and then you practically witness it die.  I’ve never been that close to such evil. 

[stumpjump]

The idea was to promote this incredible trail,

You are right. It is an incredible trail. While on your hikes, how many places did you pass and think " that could use some clearing"? How many miles did you hike between shelters? These kids could give back to what they have taken away from so many of us. It is pointless to tell you again how heartsick I am over this. Our opinions are simply that, opinions. If you had the chance to meet the kids, what would you tell them? I know first hand the anger that comes from what happened. I know, too, the pain of the other side. How many down trees are there on the trails? I was at the Burns Trailhead this weekend. There are rocks piled up that could be used to make flower beds, a trail entrance, or anything other than a rock pile. There are piles of garbage surrounding the property that need to be cleaned up. I was at Pine Glenn last weekend. The trail over there needs some minor maintenance. The fire pits need cleaning and repairing. The bathrooms were incredibly disgusting. There was debris in the creek. Why not let these kids do the work. I'm not saying that it will make what they done OK. It won't. But it will give them a chance to learn from their mistake. And why stop with the trails?? Maybe these kids should have to do some road work on the NF also. We can stop arguing, or we can nit pick each others posts until the point of the forum is lost.

[Littlelady46]

Guys, I appreciate your love of the trails. I grew up in this area. I spent many, many hours in the National Forest, Pine Glen, Coleman Lake, Sweetwater Lake and just riding through those old dirt roads on Sunday afternoons with my parents. Almost always passing Pink sitting on that porch. So , yeah I have a deep sadness over this.

It is not my intent on this forum to discredit anyones love and passion for the trails or to imply that any of you are less than intelligent or that my nephew is more intelligent than you. I may not have worded it the best way possible. My point was; these are people who have some notable attributes, some talents, some traits that aren't all bad. They are more than their crime portrays them to be. I just added a different perspective and hopefully helped you understand why I feel the lives of those 3 young people are valuable. I have children of my own. I can't imagine the heartache their parents must feel.

I almost lost my life 2 weeks ago. It has put MANY things in perspective for me. I really doubt I will ever be the same. Life is precious, everyones life. Even the life of those who commit crimes. I still pray for mercy for these kids. I fear a prison term will change them for the worse not better them. Hopefully the Judge will place stiff probation penalties and many work hours on them. For those of you who have volunteered to supervise that if needed , thank you. I sincerely hope you get the opportunity to work with them. If you get that opportunity maybe you can to teach them to love and appreciate the trails as much as you do.