Poll on sharing GPS coordinates, tracks, etc to the general public?

[DavidR]

Having been an active member on this board and in the outdoors community, I've always encountered mixed feelings regarding releasing the location of things such as caves, relics, or generally any historic thing located off the beaten path. I will say that all information that I have shared via the internet to the general public has been a mere fraction of what I know about various trails and areas. I suppose I have done so from my observance of what areas look like when they're heavily used and would hope that all of our trails and preserves never look that way. Being fair though, the areas I speak of are also very easily accessible from 4 wheelers or even dirt roads, which would make them a different situation in regards to deep woods trails that hold their secrets. Being declarative, I would say that sharing information with the general public to an extent is safe and that sharing more detailed information with those you trust is as well.

I’m hosting a poll to draw upon the input of various social networks to get a more comprehensive answer to this question: 
How do you feel about making GPS Tracks, Coordinates, or even Maps that contain historic caves, relics, or pois available to the general public?
The poll is here:  http://www.alabamatentandtrail.com/ , but I’d enjoy hearing your thoughts and reasoning.

Poll on sharing GPS coordinates, tracks, etc to the general public?

[squidbilly]

Thanks for the link. I voted- I feel it's OK to an extent. If an area is of historic or otherwise sensitive nature, and is off the beaten path, it should remain hidden. Your picture above is a good example of what happens to easily accesable areas of interest here in Alabama. The tagging is only rivaled by the amount of trash found in these places. Beer cans, food wrappers, dicarded clothing auto and appliance parts etc.  That image looks familiar by the way. Is that Wormy's Pulpit?

[Bankheadboy]

I've stop sharing my waypoints with some thinking it may get back to people that post them for all to see! I don't mine sharing but I don't want to look at Alatrails and see maps with waypoints of caves, shelters, Mortars Etc. Some of the caves in Bankhead are sinkholes and one slip and your dead could be 40' drop! But that's OK DavidR posted a cave and I wanted to see it! Now! I hope that everyone that reads Alatrails is good outdoor citizens and don't trash or destroy our forest! But who knows who is reading and who's a member of Alatrails? My 2 cents is share with ones you trust and keep your waypoints and maps off the computer! If you like the picture in this thread keep posting your GPS waypoints :'( P.S. I've already downloaded all your maps just for fun! ( I really don't need them) After looking at your blog maps and I see Rippleys Cabin it saddings me to think what could happen to that cabin if the wrong groups go and camps there. I have already heard that it had burned :'( I hope not! Some people just dont CARE!!

[Rexoutdoors]

David,
With all due respect, I don't like the ideal, and here is why. I grew up next to Bankhead National Forest and have camped all over it. I am now 50 years old and still spend every other weekend out there backpacking and camping during the winter months. I saw Kinlock Shelter when I was in Boy Scouts and saw where it was only Indian markings with National Forest Service signs protecting it. At that time, few people knew about it or could get to is easily.  Now some 30 years later, the word is out everywhere, and that once cherished shelter is just about trashed of any Indian writings being well preserved. Several authors have written books about the Bankhead. Now, I see pig trails where people are "over loving" these places to death. it is good and it is bad at the same time. If I were to post on my blog about 4 old whiskey stills that I have waypoints for, and mention that there is old jugs and historical items still there which serve as preserving the historical site, and there is over $300.00 worth of copper left from the old stills, I wonder how long it would remain there? My guess is the site that has been preserved in time for some 50 years, will be raped and pilfered of anything of value in a short time if I put those waypoints out public. That is my point. Putting them out there for the outdoor fans like on this blog is one thing, but putting them out there means ANYBODY can come in and do anything they want to, many times without any retribution because these sites are so remote. I personally have over 700 waypoints in the Bankhead. I have worked hard for them and they are a preservation of history in many regards. I only share them with trusted and respected people I trust will appreciate them. As in any public forum, many people have agendas, and many of those may be seeking to dig and find Indian arrow heads, rape the area of any copper, or maybe they just don't have the same code of ethics that many of us have on this forum such as leaving a place as you found it. A small story that taught me a lesson some time back...... There was an old grist mill on one of the creeks out in Bankhead. I found it 10 years ago with some buddies. It still had many gear parts from the mill, tucked up nicely under a bluff shelter, preserved for many to view and admire. As we got the word out to friends, it spread to other friends. To this day, there is nothing left of the site. All items have been hauled out and pilfered that had been there since the 1920's. It taught me a lesson that just because everyone SHOULD take care and observe something as it is and leave it alone, the reality is most people will not. Anyway, just wanted to convey my thoughts...Outdo or Rex

[Pathfinder]

It looks like this is your first post on the forum Rex.  I want to commend you for an excellent thought provoking post.  I agree with you 100%.  I hope to read more from you on this site in the future.

[weathermansam]

I rarely mark locations of things I find in the wilderness, and the ones I do I only share with certain people.  I am also very careful when I lead hikes as to who comes along and where I take them.  I agree with Rex's post, and welcome to the forum!

[DavidR]

@squidbilly: Yes, that is Wormy’s Pulpit, and as I mention, it is a different situation than off the beaten path, deep woods trails since it is so easy to get to. It’s just the only photo I had of a natural heritage being defaced. Weathermansam has a thread up now about kinlock shelter being defaced along the similar sentiment.

@Bankheadboy:

Some of the caves in Bankhead are sinkholes and one slip and your dead could be 40' drop! But that's OK DavidR posted a cave and I wanted to see it!

I’m glad you brought this up. First I just want to reiterate that I only share a fraction of what I find on the trails. If you search my posts here at Alatrails, or elsewhere, you’ll see that I never publish locations of the topic in discussion. I have to say that I respectfully disagree with the sentiment of your statement above. I do not want to initiate a political discussion, but I do not support Big Government or buy into the propaganda that I am intellectually inferior to the “elite” who govern. In other words, I do not need to be managed, and neither do most Americans.

How is this relevant? Well, I feel that making information available to the public to an extent plays upon this base logic. People have the ability to make good and right decisions. Where do I draw a line? Information, such as hiking, that has an element of inherent danger is much different that instructions on building a bomb. Both rely on the individual to make a good or bad decision without being managed; yet obviously, only one is more likely to be a good thing.

As for Ripley Cabin, I feel that it is common knowledge. Anyone with basic internet skills should be able to query its location. Example: This ranked 6th on Google Search Engine: Alatrails.

@Rex: First, Welcome friend! Like pathfinder said, it’s good to have another colleague who is passionate about our heritage. The story you shared is a sad reality of mankind’s ability to make horrible decisions. That is why I never full out share what I know with just anyone. I think I know the area you mention. If so there are still a few pieces of the mill left.

 

Poll on sharing GPS coordinates, tracks, etc to the general public?

This is all very good insight to the reasoning behind the logic. My main concern with why I choose not to share caves, relics, or historic locations (that are not already common knowledge) is to prevent acts of intentional vandalism. Poor hiking and camping practices like excessive (or sometimes any) fire rings, littering, trampling plant life off trail, chopping down live trees, just to name a few, I deem an environmental ethics offence of a much lesser degree and a different matter. I never want to see Alabama turn into a Yellowstone, but it saddens me to see how we look nationally compared to the resource awareness of other states that freely share (to an extent) their trails. Look at Backpacker Magazine. Another reason I promote Alabama’s trails is the current economical position of our country. With the federal administration looking high and low for ways to trim the budget, who’s to say that a liquidation of assets aren’t on the table. The US Government owns 25% of the property in our union. If say, Bankhead property was sold and moved back to the private sector all those small “Private” spots on the map would become much more common. If the state views the area as a commodity, it is much less likely to ever be in the danger zone. Of course we have private environmental groups that levy power that benefits sustained forestland via lobbyist voting pools swaying congress, but I’d prefer to see a more dispersed private sector supporting the land.

Feel free to keep the comments coming. This is very enlightening.

[wirerat123]

I'm gonna keep it short and sweet.

I do not like to come to a cave and find it defaced, I hate to come to a carving and see it defaced, I hate going to anything that was build for or by hikers, or just generally things put in place in outdoors areas to make it nicer and more convenient get vandalized.  I hate vandalism of anything especially natural or historical landmarks.

There are those that have no respect for anything.  Those are not generally going to be on boards like this one, or in your organized hiking groups.  More often than not, they are going to be younger people who were looking for a secluded place to be idiots, and show off how "cool" they are.  Mommy and daddy may have taken them their at one time, they might have been a Boy Scout at some point, etc.

Unfortunately they will get to most spots eventually.

[Joshua Szulecki]

My feelings have been hashed out many times here and elsewhere... I used to be a firm no secrets guy. When I was just chasing waterfalls, my feeling was that there should be no secret spots on public property, because the people should be allow to visit what they own, otherwise they might not know what they have or might lose interest in protecting it.

When I got interested in orchids I started to worry about poachers. Having now personally seen what a person looking to make a few measly dollars might do, I keep quiet on locations of anything that might have potential value on the black market (rare plants, artifacts, etc...). I generally keep two sets of rules in this area, stuff that is in less danger (like a really big artifact or a common plant species) I'll reveal to folks I've already spoken to and have a good bead on their likelihood for trouble. Higher risk sites (orchids, small artifacts, etc...) I disclose only to people I really trust, usually meaning they have to have found or visited similar sites with me in the past, and then not disclosed the location.

[Pathfinder]

David, I went over to your new blog and posted my opinion in the poll you have there.  Let me say that I commend you on your blog efforts.  I hope your blogging gives you much pleasure.  I did notice that your blog doesn't give readers a place to post comments.  I'm not a user of Blogger so I don't know if commenting is an option any how. 

Here again is the link to David's blog:  David's Blog

Keep up the good work!

[Jdevil]

Hello David, I took the poll and. in explanation, completely agree with Rexoutdoor's post.  Furthermore, I would much prefer to explore and work to find things on my own versus being told exactly where they are.  It's much more rewarding and worthwhile that way, I believe, in addition to making it more difficult for the lazy people who generally trash up and rape such areas to find. 

[DavidR]

Thanks for the continued input everyone. I'm going to run this poll for 1 month and see where it goes. Again, I'm drawing from multiple social media networks to be more comprehensive. So far all is as I expected it to be and syncs with what I support.

@Pathfinder: Thanks bro. We still have some caving to do. Spare time just keeps getting less and less for me. I haven't enabled commenting on my blog yet. That will be phased in later as well as many other community building tools. There is a wealth of information that Alabama's outdoor community has and can be found no where else. Some of the most interesting historic information I have come to know came from a first hand source.

[DavidR]

There is seven days left till this poll closes. I have almost 40 votes right now that are an insight to how my resources view this topic. If you haven't voted and would like to the poll is at http://www.alabamatentandtrail.com/ . Again, the topic is: How do you feel about making GPS Tracks, Coordinates, or even Maps that contain historic caves, relics, or pois available to the general public?

[DavidR]

The poll has now run for one month. Of the 50 votes received, 23 (46%) said that they only share with trusted friends. This strengthens my perspective on sharing information. To see the rest of the data, visit my site at http://www.alabamatentandtrail.com/ . If you find the information useful, feel free to click the stumble, dig, or any other promotion button to help establish the site. Thanks for your input.

[SmokeDiver]

Keeping things secret in so far as not publishing them (either by internet or guide books) is my favored approach. I see no reason why you shouldn't bring a trusted trail buddy to a site you have found when they have proven they have the same respect for it that you do. If there's something you really want to see you will be able to find someone who will help you find it. This is more valuable than a list of coords found on the internet, it connects you to new people and experiences.