need help planning hike

[nu2hike]

A friend of mine ask me to help him plan a hike for his scout troop for the second weekend in November. The scouts range in age from 12 -16 and have very little camping experience and no backpacking experience.
We would be arriving on Friday nite and would like to be able to set up camp at or very near the trail head so that we wouldn't be hiking in the dark with a bunch of newbies!
 As they are all inexperienced we want to keep the mileage down to 5 miles or less each day! Could you suggest either a loop or out and back that would meet our needs? Also would we be able to find water at that time or would we need to pack in all that we would need?
Thanks

[weathermansam]

Keep in mind wilderness regulations allow no more than 10 per group or you'll have some trouble out of a ranger if he catches you.  Park at the Borden trailhead, there's camping areas pretty much at the trailhead itself.   Saturday, take the trail down 2.5 miles to the picnic area, hop across the wooden bridge, take them up turkeyfoot creek and back for a mile and a half out and back.  Return down Borden Creek to the 209 ford/junction.  Camp there Saturday night.  Sunday, cross Borden Creek, head upstream on 209 for about a mile and a half, hike back to the creek ford, but stay on that side of Borden and hike back to the trailhead.  That keeps the mileage on both days at about 5 miles.  The trails are well established here, and there's not a terrible amount of elevation change.  The water will be quite low so the ford will be easy.  I'm going to the big tree this weekend so I'll give you an update on the water levels Saturday night.  

[nu2hike]

Thanks!

[nu2hike]

There's been a change of plans! Since we have such a large group (18) we've decided to break up into two groups! We would still like to be able to all camp at the same place on Friday nite but go off in different directions or at least camp in different places on Saturday!
Would it be possible for us to do this using the same route suggested above or is there a better alternative?
Whatever we do we need to be able for each group to start and end at the same place!
Sorry to make this so complicated but we aren't familiar with this area!

[Cuffs]

Do you have to go to Sipsey?

If Talladega is an option there's good opportunity for what you are asking for.

This would be out-and-back hikes:

Everyone meet and camp at Pine Glen campground.
From there one group heads north on the Pinhoti 5.8 miles to Lower Shoal Shelter and camps there, returning on the same route in the morning.
The second group heads south on the Pinhoti for 4.5 miles to camp at Laurel Shelter. Again returning to Pine Glen on the same route.

[weathermansam]

I'd do Cuffs route if possible [I'm missing the pinhoti something awful right now], but if you had to do Sipsey, flip the directions I gave. 

Park at the picnic grounds, hike about half a mile in to the junction/ford area friday night [the trail is wide here and easily doable in the dark, if needed], there's a big camping area here.  The next morning, send one group on across and up 209 to their heart's desire Saturday, send the other group down borden creek to the borden trailhead and either continue up 203 [which i've not done], or cross the old bridge and go up braziel a ways [i like this area personally].  then Sunday rendezvous back at the borden ford junction and head out, or you could opt to pick the second group up from the borden trailhead if they wanted to go further up braziel.   

[blisterbob]

nu2hike;
if you decide to do the hike cuffs recommended,
the distances to the shelters from Pine Glen are correct but the shelter names are reversed.
 I wouldn't want your group to be confused when they saw a different name on the shelter.
Good luck,

[nu2hike]

Weathermansam, if we reverse the hike as you suggest, are there good places to camp Saturday nite and if so how long a hike would it be?
My friend is rethinking the distances. He has doubts that some of his scouts will be able to cover the 5 miles he originally planned. Neither of us want to overwhelm these kids! If we make it too difficult we may all regret it! So I'm thinking maybe three miles max may be more in line for their first outing,
I appreciate all of you for taking the time to help me plan this trip! I  started back hiking and backpacking after about a twenty year hiatus a couple of years ago. I've put in quite a few miles since then, mostly on my own! Whereas I would love to share what little knowledge I have  with these kids, I have no experience at all with anything related to boy scouting! Heck, I'm not even a boy! :} I'm anxious to make this a positive experience for everyone involved!
 Any ideas you have to offer will be greatly appreciated!

[weathermansam]

Weathermansam, if we reverse the hike as you suggest, are there good places to camp Saturday nite and if so how long a hike would it be?
My friend is rethinking the distances. He has doubts that some of his scouts will be able to cover the 5 miles he originally planned. Neither of us want to overwhelm these kids! If we make it too difficult we may all regret it! So I'm thinking maybe three miles max may be more in line for their first outing,
I appreciate all of you for taking the time to help me plan this trip! I  started back hiking and backpacking after about a twenty year hiatus a couple of years ago. I've put in quite a few miles since then, mostly on my own! Whereas I would love to share what little knowledge I have  with these kids, I have no experience at all with anything related to boy scouting! Heck, I'm not even a boy! :} I'm anxious to make this a positive experience for everyone involved!
 Any ideas you have to offer will be greatly appreciated!

3 miles max per day or for the trip itself?

[nu2hike]

3 miles max per day.

[weathermansam]

3 miles max per day.

I'd still park at the Sipsey Picnic area and walk in the roughly half mile to the ford area.  Saturday split up, let one group hike ford Borden and hike up river on the Sipsey for a few miles, and the other essentially hike to the parking area [which is 2 miles from the borden ford area].  Set up camp there and then they can explore over the old bridge and up braziel a little ways if they wanted.  I don't know where the group heading up river on Sipsey would camp with that many, maybe near the saltpeter wells area.  It's been a while since I've been on that stretch, but anything's doable.  There aren't a lot of places in the wilderness area to spring up 8-10 tents in one location, and with the tornado damage on the other side of the forest it limits you even more right now. 

[nu2hike]

Thank you!

[Firedog]

Unless they are complete couch potatoes, or have some other physical issues, 12-16 year old boys shouldn't have a problem with 5 miles/day. It is a good idea to hit a rest break about every mile or so. We hiked the Odum trail starting at age 11. it's 9.8 miles.  I have a 20 year old so I know how the kids today don't seem to be as active as we were at that age. We ran five miles around the neighborhood before lunch back in the early 70's. 5 miles/day shouldn't be a problem.

[nu2hike]

I agree that 5 miles SHOULDN'T be a problem, but according to their pack leader it will be! I've never met these boys so I'm not in a position to evaluate their abilities.
They just completed a 10 mile canoe trip which ended in a 2 mile hike out and apparently they didn't fair too well. Evidently they had difficulty carrying their 40+ lbs. packs!
Hopefully they will be in better shape by the time we leave in Nov. ! :]

[weathermansam]

I re-read what I suggested, and I do have to mention one thing, if for no other reason than what upcoming duties will require me to correct myself on:  Even if you're in two groups of 10 or less you can't all camp together 'legally' at that junction I mentioned near the Borden ford, as it then would count as more than a group of 10.  That's as far as my advisement can go on that issue, but I would call the office.  It seems that 209 is closed from that junction all the way to trail 204.  It baffles me, it surprised some of the folks in Wild South, as much of that is clear, but it's still technically closed, and if a ranger found you all out there, he'd probably make you leave.  I wish I'd known that bit of information before suggesting the route I did. 

HOWEVER, I have come up with an alternate solution.  Park at the Borden Creek Trailhead.  Left half camp on one side of the creek, camp the other on the other side.  Saturday morning, hike one group down Borden until they tire [the trail is 2.5miles long], hike the other group in the opposite direction, up 203 for a few miles.  Get up Sunday, and hike back down to the Borden Trailhead.  This also keeps you from meeting each other on the trail as well, which is apparently a violation.  I think that'll solve all the issues. 

[nu2hike]

 I spoke with the FS today and they said that 209 is officially closed! With that information, we have decided to
camp one night instead of two. We're thinking to park at Borden Creek TH and send one group up 224 and another up 203.  Looking at the map 203 appears to cross Borden Creek so the group on that trail shouldn't have a problem finding water. Are there any places suitable to camp along  trail 203?
What about water and available camp spots on 224?
Sorry to be so persistent, but we are not familiar with this area and want to have some idea of what to expect! All the trail closures are playing havoc with our plans!
Thanks

[elbowman]

nu2hike,

There is a solution to the group rule. Camp outside the wilderness area. On Route 33 about 1/2 mile  on the left past the turn off for cranal rd (borden trail head turn) there is a large camp area with a outhouse that will accommodate a group of scouts. It's in the forest, across the street from the designated wilderness area.

And I would suggest letting the boys do trail 200 in two groups, one dropped off at the recreational area and the other at Borden Trailhead. The two groups can pass each other and you can do all this with only 1 vehicle. Trail 200 is 2.7 miles and has ALOT of places to explore for the boys along the way.

And don't worry about meeting a ranger out on the trails. They are more scarce than the black bear out there.

Eric

[weathermansam]

I spoke with the FS today and they said that 209 is officially closed! With that information, we have decided to
camp one night instead of two. We're thinking to park at Borden Creek TH and send one group up 224 and another up 203.  Looking at the map 203 appears to cross Borden Creek so the group on that trail shouldn't have a problem finding water. Are there any places suitable to camp along  trail 203?
What about water and available camp spots on 224?
Sorry to be so persistent, but we are not familiar with this area and want to have some idea of what to expect! All the trail closures are playing havoc with our plans!
Thanks

I absolutely would not do 224.  It's a boring old roadbed as far as I'm concerned.  If you're already at the borden trailhead, sending one down 200 [borden creek trail] and the other up 203 is about as easy as it gets.  203 doesn't cross that I know of, but 207 does [going up Braziel Creek], and 207 is closed right now anyway as far as I know. 

nu2hike,

There is a solution to the group rule. Camp outside the wilderness area. On Route 33 about 1/2 mile  on the left past the turn off for cranal rd (borden trail head turn) there is a large camp area with a outhouse that will accommodate a group of scouts. It's in the forest, across the street from the designated wilderness area.

Are you talking about the McDougal hunting camp?